RAF Regiment Special Forces Medal
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the definition of special forces.
I used to have a shop selling militaria which attracted both serving and former military types who liked to chat. I could always tell the ones who hadn't been in special forces, they were the ones with big bellies who used to tap their noses, wink and tell you they weren't allowed to talk about what they had done in the forces!
I used to have a shop selling militaria which attracted both serving and former military types who liked to chat. I could always tell the ones who hadn't been in special forces, they were the ones with big bellies who used to tap their noses, wink and tell you they weren't allowed to talk about what they had done in the forces!
Maybe they had been cooks!
That would surely be something to keep quiet about
barnstormer 1968, there is no such thing as the "5 miles of death" it was just the distance from where the trainees on one Field Gunner course were dropped off to the start line of a field firing exercise, FS Taylor was just trying to gee the men up before a hard day. The RAF Regiment have to do the same 8 mile CFT with the same weight and timings as Army infantry units. 2 Sqn complete the Pre Para selection course before parachute training, this course is broadly similar to Army P Coy and people who have done both say they are equally as hard.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May have changed but there was a time when RM, Para and some units of RAF Regt were classified as 1st echelon strategic reserve, followed by, in the Army, other units that were 2nd echelon strategic reserve. 1st echelon were required to meet a higher standard of physical fitness than 2nd echelon who in turn had a higher standard than the rest.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you one of those that think the Earth is flat?The courses are nothing like each other.
2 Sqdn. used to do P Coy. as pre para training until it became hard to get places. They then devised their own, there are differences, no milling for example, and AFAIK their distance marching is in webbing with no bergans. Still tough going though, P Coy isn't as tough as it used to be.
GiJoe, I work with a lot of people who have done both courses, have you? I also know the Earth isn't flat, what was your point behind that comment? Are you one of those who believes the "shooting their own osprey, never leave the wire" rubbish about the RAF Regiment?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheekychimp.
Its hard to respond to your post. While you are correct that the RAF regiment do the same CFT as basic line infantry units (but also people like cooks, drivers, storemen and clerks) lets not forget that the CFT is just one test. A bog standard soldier should still be able to run 12 milers, and a bog standard booty will run a 30 miler.
I fully understand that many RAF regiment people still like the idea of the big three, but I have to say that in my experience an average gunner just isn't up to the level of an average infantry soldier.
It's great that you think pre para is equal to P company. I'd be interested to hear how many special forces types you know who say they found pre para harder than special forces selection. I've heard quite a few say that about P company. I think that when we get into a conversation about how gunners run the same test as a clerk in the Adjutant General's Corps we are on to a loser.
Its hard to respond to your post. While you are correct that the RAF regiment do the same CFT as basic line infantry units (but also people like cooks, drivers, storemen and clerks) lets not forget that the CFT is just one test. A bog standard soldier should still be able to run 12 milers, and a bog standard booty will run a 30 miler.
I fully understand that many RAF regiment people still like the idea of the big three, but I have to say that in my experience an average gunner just isn't up to the level of an average infantry soldier.
It's great that you think pre para is equal to P company. I'd be interested to hear how many special forces types you know who say they found pre para harder than special forces selection. I've heard quite a few say that about P company. I think that when we get into a conversation about how gunners run the same test as a clerk in the Adjutant General's Corps we are on to a loser.
Well, how to respond to that? In 29 years in the RAF Regt I've never heard anyone mention the "big 3" it's something that's been picked up by arrse and carried on. Factually, you are incorrect about the CFT (at least it was when I was attached to the Army a couple of years ago) there are 3 different weights for the trades, a AGC clerk doesn't carry as much as a Gunner. I would like to ask about your experience that says a RAF Regiment Gunner is not the equal of an average infantryman, during my time as a JTAC I worked with plenty of infantry regiments so I've seen both sides. Not for one minute am I suggesting that as a regiment we are the equals of the Paras, but 2 Sqn can certainly hold their own against them. I'll ask about your P Coy/Pre Para/Selection query.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheekychimp.
We are rambling a bit between us.
Shall we try to pin some things down?
The thread started about an RAF regiment special forces medal. Some here wonder if the rocks are special forces. I say they arent, and the tier system goes with that. Later you mention 2 sqn and pre para. I'm more than happy to say 2 sqn are very very good, they are the creme of the creme but again, just like the paras they aren't special forces. While some aspects of P company and pre para are identical it could be said that the differences are what make P company not only the tougher course, but also seperates it from other army infantry courses (bergens instead of webbing, milling and tranasium etc).
While I dont think I've ever heard a para say rocks are their equals they are less scathing about 2 sqn, I'd also add that from my point of view I wouldnt see an advantage for pre para students to wear bergens on runs as they have a different role.
As for hearing the big three, I'm afraid I've heard it quite a bit. With your years of service (generalising here) you are too old to wan't to use the phrase, and with a specialist role you don't need to pretend anything.
With your experience of working with the army you may well have heard young soldiers say things that they may not say in front of their peers or to other soldiers.
I'm very much an armchair General these days and meet service personnel in that capacity. I only wish you could have been with me on a few occasions and heard various young rocks telling tales of daring do and the big three.
You would be cringing too*
Lets not pretend though that a rock JTAC is the same as an 18 year old gunner anymore than a time served chap from 4/73 is the same as an 18 year old artillery lad fresh from depot!
*I've met lots of army commandos and special types too, perhaps they just wore ordinary beret badges to blend in
We are rambling a bit between us.
Shall we try to pin some things down?
The thread started about an RAF regiment special forces medal. Some here wonder if the rocks are special forces. I say they arent, and the tier system goes with that. Later you mention 2 sqn and pre para. I'm more than happy to say 2 sqn are very very good, they are the creme of the creme but again, just like the paras they aren't special forces. While some aspects of P company and pre para are identical it could be said that the differences are what make P company not only the tougher course, but also seperates it from other army infantry courses (bergens instead of webbing, milling and tranasium etc).
While I dont think I've ever heard a para say rocks are their equals they are less scathing about 2 sqn, I'd also add that from my point of view I wouldnt see an advantage for pre para students to wear bergens on runs as they have a different role.
As for hearing the big three, I'm afraid I've heard it quite a bit. With your years of service (generalising here) you are too old to wan't to use the phrase, and with a specialist role you don't need to pretend anything.
With your experience of working with the army you may well have heard young soldiers say things that they may not say in front of their peers or to other soldiers.
I'm very much an armchair General these days and meet service personnel in that capacity. I only wish you could have been with me on a few occasions and heard various young rocks telling tales of daring do and the big three.
You would be cringing too
*Lets not pretend though that a rock JTAC is the same as an 18 year old gunner anymore than a time served chap from 4/73 is the same as an 18 year old artillery lad fresh from depot!
*I've met lots of army commandos and special types too, perhaps they just wore ordinary beret badges to blend in
Tankertrashnav
Yes, there very much are definitions as to what special forces are.
The British use Tier 1 and Tier 2 classifications. The SAS (regulars) and SBS (regulars) are tier 1. SAS, SAS signals and SBS reserves are tier 2 from memory. The SRS are tier 2 I think. The Royal marines, Paras and RAF regiment are not special forces. With regards to those three although 2 sqn RAF regiment have a good reputation its training regime and five miler of death fall way short of the other two units...............A five mile run just isn't in the same league as the thirty miler a commando would do!
While the pathfnders are 'ordinary forces' some people would consider them as tier 2 level. The same applies to soldiers who are patrols qualified*
Going back to SFSG, while it comes under the director special forces, only soldiers in the unit could be considered as tier 2 soldiers, soldiers in normal RM, Para or rockape units are very much ordinary forces.
*The British army has three arduous training courses:
Special forces selection
P company
Patrols course (it has a newer name, but is often called patrols course)
Yes, there very much are definitions as to what special forces are.
The British use Tier 1 and Tier 2 classifications. The SAS (regulars) and SBS (regulars) are tier 1. SAS, SAS signals and SBS reserves are tier 2 from memory. The SRS are tier 2 I think. The Royal marines, Paras and RAF regiment are not special forces. With regards to those three although 2 sqn RAF regiment have a good reputation its training regime and five miler of death fall way short of the other two units...............A five mile run just isn't in the same league as the thirty miler a commando would do!
While the pathfnders are 'ordinary forces' some people would consider them as tier 2 level. The same applies to soldiers who are patrols qualified*
Going back to SFSG, while it comes under the director special forces, only soldiers in the unit could be considered as tier 2 soldiers, soldiers in normal RM, Para or rockape units are very much ordinary forces.
*The British army has three arduous training courses:
Special forces selection
P company
Patrols course (it has a newer name, but is often called patrols course)
The rumour in my day was that SF were defined as "strategic" troops, as opposed to "tactical" troops and so were controlled from higher level command.
Core tasks were long-range behind the lines intelligence gathering and strategic sabotage - a role which coincidentally required very levels of endurance and work load in arduous conditions over operations that might last several weeks or more. UKSF "Selection" thus evolved to select people who were capable of this role.
These strategic tasks are now carried out by drones. "Selection" for UKSF is thus not as so endurance oriented as it used to be, since the role of UKSF - though still strategic - has evolved.
