USN T-45 Grounded After Pilots Strike
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For our other contributor ... (Octane)
I wonder if Lt Pence would avoid the draft if WW3 broke out today, as is recent tradition in US politics.
The honourable Senator McCain (though he's "not a hero" because he got shot down according to one retard), George Bush Senior (who I believe also got shot down in WW2), JFK and John Kerry deserve special mention and respect among others.
The honourable Senator McCain (though he's "not a hero" because he got shot down according to one retard), George Bush Senior (who I believe also got shot down in WW2), JFK and John Kerry deserve special mention and respect among others.
So, how many years did you serve?
Salute!
Yeah, Wolfie, a safety grounding is not all that unique. The down time can be months or just a few days depending on the issue.
I participated in two as the jets matured and many more sorties were being flown by many more jets than during the test programs. Both of mine were due to the motors.
The A-7D had a sleeve on the fan shaft that could fail and there goes the TF-41. So we would taxi the suckers around to keep stuff lubricated and look for other squaks.
The F-16 also had a problem that did not show up for a coupla years and we did the same drill as we had for the SLUF. In fact, that's how I got my wife in the jet. We had plenty of family models being a training outfit, so we had all the wives take a spin down the runway before pulling the power back.
The oxygen thing is scary, as you may not know you have a problem when it is already too late.
Local station down here in PNS had a decent segment on the problem a coupla days ago.
Gums sends..
Yeah, Wolfie, a safety grounding is not all that unique. The down time can be months or just a few days depending on the issue.
I participated in two as the jets matured and many more sorties were being flown by many more jets than during the test programs. Both of mine were due to the motors.
The A-7D had a sleeve on the fan shaft that could fail and there goes the TF-41. So we would taxi the suckers around to keep stuff lubricated and look for other squaks.
The F-16 also had a problem that did not show up for a coupla years and we did the same drill as we had for the SLUF. In fact, that's how I got my wife in the jet. We had plenty of family models being a training outfit, so we had all the wives take a spin down the runway before pulling the power back.
The oxygen thing is scary, as you may not know you have a problem when it is already too late.
Local station down here in PNS had a decent segment on the problem a coupla days ago.
Gums sends..
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Grounding extended.
http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2017/04/...training-wing/
".......As I have shared before in messages to the force, I am fully prepared to limit or curtail flight operations if our fleet leadership team determines the risk to our aircrew cannot be mitigated to an acceptable level. After frank discussions with the aircrew, leadership staffs and engineers, I will extend the operational pause for at least a week to allow time for our engineers to do a deeper dive into T-45 systems and for leadership to determine additional mitigation measures that will reduce the risks associated with the T-45 oxygen breathing system."..........
http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2017/04/...training-wing/
".......As I have shared before in messages to the force, I am fully prepared to limit or curtail flight operations if our fleet leadership team determines the risk to our aircrew cannot be mitigated to an acceptable level. After frank discussions with the aircrew, leadership staffs and engineers, I will extend the operational pause for at least a week to allow time for our engineers to do a deeper dive into T-45 systems and for leadership to determine additional mitigation measures that will reduce the risks associated with the T-45 oxygen breathing system."..........
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And away we go.... indefinitely:
"The head of naval aviation has extended a three-day grounding of all the Navy's T-45 training jets indefinitely after a group of instructor pilots refused to fly the aircraft....
...Shoemaker was joined in Meridian by Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee who has taken an interest in the T-45 issues.
Wicker told a local TV station that the Navy was planning to send a couple of the T-45s to Naval Air Station Patuxent River to be broken down and evaluated for issues. [Ve Haf Vays of Making you talk]
“This is now the top priority of naval aviation, to get to the bottom of this, to solve this," Wicker said. "We’re being told in this respect that money is no object that the necessary resources are going to be devoted to solving this problem.”
https://www.navytimes.com/articles/t...-flight-school 09 Apr 2017
...Shoemaker was joined in Meridian by Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee who has taken an interest in the T-45 issues.
Wicker told a local TV station that the Navy was planning to send a couple of the T-45s to Naval Air Station Patuxent River to be broken down and evaluated for issues. [Ve Haf Vays of Making you talk]
“This is now the top priority of naval aviation, to get to the bottom of this, to solve this," Wicker said. "We’re being told in this respect that money is no object that the necessary resources are going to be devoted to solving this problem.”
https://www.navytimes.com/articles/t...-flight-school 09 Apr 2017
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T-45s flying again after brief grounding 17 Apr 2017 Leigh Giangreco
"...Pilots should resume operations early next [week 17 Apr 2017] but will be limited to flights under 10,000 feet, according to a 15 April NAVAIR statement. Although the on board oxygen generator system (OBOGS) is not needed at that altitude, pilots wear the mask in training and the communications mic is already established in the mask, a NAVAIR spokeswoman said in an email to FlightGlobal. The connection between the mask and the helmet reduces risk in case of ejection and in the event of an emergency, pilots can hook back into the oxygen, she adds....
...The OBOGS represent a persistent problem for the Navy’s T-45, EA-18Gs and F/A-18F/Gs and hypoxia has plagued the service’s fleet of T-45s for years now.
The Navy is continuing to work with flight surgeons, physiologists and toxicologists to identify the root problem, Shoemaker says. Recently, an independent review team from NASA visited Pax River as part of ongoing review of physiological episodes."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...unding-436265/
...The OBOGS represent a persistent problem for the Navy’s T-45, EA-18Gs and F/A-18F/Gs and hypoxia has plagued the service’s fleet of T-45s for years now.
The Navy is continuing to work with flight surgeons, physiologists and toxicologists to identify the root problem, Shoemaker says. Recently, an independent review team from NASA visited Pax River as part of ongoing review of physiological episodes."
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...unding-436265/
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Bummer for gaining CarQuals/Wings O'Gold - in the movies they fly without masks on - just pretend.... go on.... 
"Navy student pilots will resume some flights in the T-45C Goshawk this week after a 12-day operational pause to determine the cause of recent oxygen-generation system failures, but they will not be allowed to land on aircraft carriers or fly higher-altitude missions until a permanent solution is found...." 17 Apr 2017
https://news.usni.org/2017/04/17/tem...solution-found
https://news.usni.org/2017/04/17/tem...solution-found
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HolyMoly Batman! More T-45C restrictions - 5K feet and 2G limit: LONG ARTICLE....
New Problems Hit T-45; Navy Tightens Flight Limits « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
New Problems Hit T-45; Navy Tightens Flight Limits « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
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U.S. Navy Further Limits T-45 Flying To 5,000 ft. 21 Apr 2017 AvWeak
U.S. Navy Further Limits T-45 Flying To 5,000 ft. | Defense content from Aviation Week
_______________________________
"...one pilot reported minor headaches and the symptoms had subsided as the aircraft descended. A medical team assessed that this discomfort resulted from the high g-forces that were being experienced at the upper edge of the 10,000-ft. altitude limit. The pilots had been conducting dynamic flight maneuvers above 4 g at 10,000 ft. with the adjusted masks “to better understand the limitations of the new procedures,” a Navy spokeswoman said on April 21. “This was one flight out of 92 flown over the two days.
“Based on feedback from the instructor pilots, we have implemented further precautionary measures,” she adds. “We [also] sent a team of engineers to Kingsville to inspect the aircraft.”
Instructor pilots have already reported concerns about the new mask configuration being used, a congressional staffer with knowledge of the issue says. Pilots are finding it uncomfortable to breathe through the modified mask. Another problem is that the new system requires the pilot to re-hook the Obogs if he or she needs to use the emergency oxygen, which is not ideal.
“We are re-evaluating the new mask configuration based on feedback aircrew conveyed after their flights,” the Navy says. “Safety is our priority; we will ensure that all mitigations are implemented, required procedural changes identified and communicated with all our aviators.”
The 29-year-old training aircraft, based on the British Aerospace Hawk, typically can fly higher than 42,000 ft...." [QUE?]
“Based on feedback from the instructor pilots, we have implemented further precautionary measures,” she adds. “We [also] sent a team of engineers to Kingsville to inspect the aircraft.”
Instructor pilots have already reported concerns about the new mask configuration being used, a congressional staffer with knowledge of the issue says. Pilots are finding it uncomfortable to breathe through the modified mask. Another problem is that the new system requires the pilot to re-hook the Obogs if he or she needs to use the emergency oxygen, which is not ideal.
“We are re-evaluating the new mask configuration based on feedback aircrew conveyed after their flights,” the Navy says. “Safety is our priority; we will ensure that all mitigations are implemented, required procedural changes identified and communicated with all our aviators.”
The 29-year-old training aircraft, based on the British Aerospace Hawk, typically can fly higher than 42,000 ft...." [QUE?]
_______________________________
T-45C NATOPS "4.1.2 Altitude Limits. Maximum altitude is 41,000 feet MSL."
http://www.filefactory.com/file/5kfa...AC-NFM-000.pdf (17.5Mb)
http://www.filefactory.com/file/5kfa...AC-NFM-000.pdf (17.5Mb)
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Interesting factoid 'cabin pressure' (along with an error not cited) in this article: 24 Apr 2017
"...Hornets, F/A-18E-F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers. On March 31, though, the Navy canceled 94 T-45C Goshawk trainer jet flights due to concerns about the potential for PEs, and on April 5 Commander of Naval Air Forces Vice Adm. Mike Shoemaker announced an operational pause for the T-45s. That three-day pause turned into a 12-day pause, and when flights resumed last week the Navy had identified a temporary fix that would allow students to fly about 75 percent of the mission sets in their syllabus – but they cannot fly above 10,000 feet cabin pressure and cannot land on aircraft carriers until a permanent solution is identified...." https://news.usni.org/2017/04/24/nav...gical-episodes
"...2.18.2 Cockpit Pressurization System.
Cockpit pressurization is controlled by the pressure control valve and its slave discharge valve. These two servo controlled discharge valves restrict the discharge of air from the cockpit to maintain cockpit pressure at the required differential. Pressurization commences at 5,000 feet MSL and increases approximately linearly with altitude until the full differential pressure of 4 psi is attained at 40,000 feet MSL...." http://www.filefactory.com/file/5kfa...AC-NFM-000.pdf (17.5Mb)
Cockpit pressurization is controlled by the pressure control valve and its slave discharge valve. These two servo controlled discharge valves restrict the discharge of air from the cockpit to maintain cockpit pressure at the required differential. Pressurization commences at 5,000 feet MSL and increases approximately linearly with altitude until the full differential pressure of 4 psi is attained at 40,000 feet MSL...." http://www.filefactory.com/file/5kfa...AC-NFM-000.pdf (17.5Mb)
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 24th Apr 2017 at 18:43. Reason: + chart
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U.S. Navy Orders 30-Day Review of T-45, F/A-18 Incidents 25 Apr 2017 Bill Carey
"...On April 18, the Navy said that it has assembled an Aero-Medical Crisis Action Team (A-CAT) consisting of flight doctors, physiologists, toxicologists, engineers and specialists from both Navy component units and the U.S. Air Force’s 711th Human Performance Wing at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio....
...According to the A-CAT release, the Air Force has offered to provide the Navy with an in-line air quality sensor previously approved for use on the F-16 Fighting Falcon for use on the T-45." U.S. Navy Orders 30-Day Review of T-45, F/A-18 Incidents | Defense News: Aviation International News
...According to the A-CAT release, the Air Force has offered to provide the Navy with an in-line air quality sensor previously approved for use on the F-16 Fighting Falcon for use on the T-45." U.S. Navy Orders 30-Day Review of T-45, F/A-18 Incidents | Defense News: Aviation International News
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Cockpit Oxygen Episodes Sideline Navy Pilots Fighting ISIS Hope Hodge Seck
05 May 2017 "ABOARD THE USS GEORGE H. W. BUSH, Persian Gulf -- The U.S.S. George H. W. Bush in January became the first East Coast-based carrier to deploy with a specialized piece of medical equipment aboard: a hyperbaric chamber, or "transportable recompression system," designed to treat pilots who experience hypoxia-like symptoms in the cockpit. Fewer than four months into the deployment, it has already been used twice for that purpose....
...In both incidents, the pilots involved were fortunate in that the episodes occurred near the carrier, allowing them to land quickly and seek treatment. If an episode had begun above an urban ground fight over Iraq or Syria, the available options might have been more limited, and certainly more complex. Having the recompression chamber aboard to treat pilots' symptoms was a measure that emerged from aviators' feedback, McCall said....
...McCall said the decision to deploy the system -- an egg-shaped pod six to seven feet long -- aboard the Bush was made just weeks before the carrier departed port. "That would not have happened without a dialogue from aviators in squadrons right to the three-star level," he said. "I'll be honest, we've moved that dialogue fairly quickly."
Other mitigation and detection measures also represent firsts for the carrier. McCall said the carrier was the first to deploy its fighters equipped with "slam sticks," small devices that measure cockpit air pressure and other factors, and can provide diagnostics following a mission....
...Another measure, designed to help pilots detect cockpit problems before they can physically feel them, is a true improvisation: the wearing of commercially available Garmin watches, equipped with altimeters and barometric sensors, that can be set to sound alarms when certain thresholds are reached...." Cockpit Oxygen Episodes Sideline Navy Pilots Fighting ISIS | Military.com
...In both incidents, the pilots involved were fortunate in that the episodes occurred near the carrier, allowing them to land quickly and seek treatment. If an episode had begun above an urban ground fight over Iraq or Syria, the available options might have been more limited, and certainly more complex. Having the recompression chamber aboard to treat pilots' symptoms was a measure that emerged from aviators' feedback, McCall said....
...McCall said the decision to deploy the system -- an egg-shaped pod six to seven feet long -- aboard the Bush was made just weeks before the carrier departed port. "That would not have happened without a dialogue from aviators in squadrons right to the three-star level," he said. "I'll be honest, we've moved that dialogue fairly quickly."
Other mitigation and detection measures also represent firsts for the carrier. McCall said the carrier was the first to deploy its fighters equipped with "slam sticks," small devices that measure cockpit air pressure and other factors, and can provide diagnostics following a mission....
...Another measure, designed to help pilots detect cockpit problems before they can physically feel them, is a true improvisation: the wearing of commercially available Garmin watches, equipped with altimeters and barometric sensors, that can be set to sound alarms when certain thresholds are reached...." Cockpit Oxygen Episodes Sideline Navy Pilots Fighting ISIS | Military.com
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For the faint of heart or short of breath & hyperventilating - the F-35 OBOGS is made by HONEYWELL:
“Existing applications of OBOGS
Honeywell systems have been in service for over 20 years and are currently used by many Air Forces worldwide on aircraft which include:
• JSF F-35 • Eurofighter • F-22 • Hawk LIF • Nimrod • Gripen • PC-21 • B-1B • B-2B”
https://aerocontent.honeywell.com/ae...rt_Systems.pdf (4Mb)
Honeywell systems have been in service for over 20 years and are currently used by many Air Forces worldwide on aircraft which include:
• JSF F-35 • Eurofighter • F-22 • Hawk LIF • Nimrod • Gripen • PC-21 • B-1B • B-2B”
https://aerocontent.honeywell.com/ae...rt_Systems.pdf (4Mb)
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 7th May 2017 at 11:30. Reason: + grfx
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Navy, Marines Still Struggling with T-45C Trainer Oxygen System Failures 07 Jun 2017 Sam LaGrone
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/07/nav...ystem-failures
"...the Navy is considering replacing today’s OBOGS with an older liquid oxygen system (LOX) to provide air to pilots, but he called that a “longer-term solution.” Grosklags said he needs something to get the Goshawks back in the air in a matter of weeks, whereas the LOX solution could take months.
USNI News previously reported that LOX, or bottled oxygen, has helped cease the physical symptoms of hypoxia – headache, tingly fingers, grogginess – during physiological episodes on the F/A-18A-D Hornets, F/A-18E-F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers, giving pilots about 10 minutes to safely land the jet. When hypoxia occurred on a T-45, though, the use of bottled oxygen didn’t always end the symptoms, meaning that LOX is not a valid solution for T-45s right now....
...And still, while mitigation measures are underway for the trainers, the enduring mystery remains of why pilots are suffering troubling and increasing physiological episodes in not only the Goshawks but also in the Navy’s fleet of F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growler fleets as well.
“This system has worked fine for 20-plus years. Something happened,” Davis said “It’s the same box in the [AV-8B] Harrier. It’s the same OBOGS box and we don’t have a problem in Harriers. So what’s different? What is different in the T-45s?”
The results of a fleet-wide study into the physiological episode issue — led by U.S Pacific Fleet commander Adm. Scott Swift — is due to do be briefed later this month."
USNI News previously reported that LOX, or bottled oxygen, has helped cease the physical symptoms of hypoxia – headache, tingly fingers, grogginess – during physiological episodes on the F/A-18A-D Hornets, F/A-18E-F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers, giving pilots about 10 minutes to safely land the jet. When hypoxia occurred on a T-45, though, the use of bottled oxygen didn’t always end the symptoms, meaning that LOX is not a valid solution for T-45s right now....
...And still, while mitigation measures are underway for the trainers, the enduring mystery remains of why pilots are suffering troubling and increasing physiological episodes in not only the Goshawks but also in the Navy’s fleet of F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growler fleets as well.
“This system has worked fine for 20-plus years. Something happened,” Davis said “It’s the same box in the [AV-8B] Harrier. It’s the same OBOGS box and we don’t have a problem in Harriers. So what’s different? What is different in the T-45s?”
The results of a fleet-wide study into the physiological episode issue — led by U.S Pacific Fleet commander Adm. Scott Swift — is due to do be briefed later this month."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 8th Jun 2017 at 09:09.
Thread Starter
This is the part that has me still scratching my head:
I have a few sources that I can still probe and have discovered that they aren't talking. Interesting.
While I recall having met Vice Adm. Paul Grosklags some years ago when he was a squadron CO, I'm not on his Christmas card list. Too bad, I'd live to sit and have a coffee with him and chew the fat on this one.
This system has worked fine for 20-plus years. Something happened,” Davis said “It’s the same box in the [AV-8B] Harrier. It’s the same OBOGS box and we don’t have a problem in Harriers. So what’s different? What is different in the T-45s?
While I recall having met Vice Adm. Paul Grosklags some years ago when he was a squadron CO, I'm not on his Christmas card list. Too bad, I'd live to sit and have a coffee with him and chew the fat on this one.
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IF LOX installed then there are other issues for pilots such as Pure Oxygen Under Pressure “absorption atelectasis” - one of the fun aspects of the A-4 series. COUGH COUGH COUGH [once was good enough however YMMV] then the VALSALVA MANEUVER.
“...a high concentration of oxygen at low altitudes can lead to “absorption atelectasis,” in which too much oxygen can wash away necessary nitrogen within the lungs and cause lung tissue to collapse.”... USAF F-22 Cockpit Anomaly Studies Continue | AWIN content from Aviation Week
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 9th Jun 2017 at 20:28. Reason: ValSalva