Commissioned from the ranks.
QUOTE:
Field Marshall Sir William Robertson has the distinction of being the only Private Soldier to have risen to the very top, becoming CIGS between the wars, he rose to Troop Sergeant Major before Commissioning and included a spell in jail for allowing a prisoner to escape. The only rank he didn't hold was WO1.
Hardly surprising, as WO I did not exist until WO II was created in 1915, by which time he was a general.
Field Marshall Sir William Robertson has the distinction of being the only Private Soldier to have risen to the very top, becoming CIGS between the wars, he rose to Troop Sergeant Major before Commissioning and included a spell in jail for allowing a prisoner to escape. The only rank he didn't hold was WO1.
Hardly surprising, as WO I did not exist until WO II was created in 1915, by which time he was a general.
Very Good Point
Police and fast Track don't get me started, latest idea is direct entry Inspectors and Superintendents from a management background but with no Police experience, a recipe for disaster in my view. The old accelerated promotion scheme died out some years ago but at least that saw them actually working in the ranks Constable, Sergeant to Inspector to learn the sharp end.
There are many faults with 'The Police' as an organisation, but the vast majority are trying to do the best they can against the same budget cuts - something I know the military are suffering. Anyway, I digress, sorry - a senior manager from the retail world who is a direct entrant at Superintendent level could, in theory, SIO (run) a Cat A murder,i.e, a murder without very many clues, or one with OCG (Organised Crime Group). Chaos would ensue!
A UK Force employed 3 Direct Entrants in the last couple of years and I feel fairly confident in saying non are still in situ.
If it ain't broke - as it were - don't try and fix it.
I don't ever recall the Government suggesting Group Captains should become Flt Sgts!!
TN.
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God forbid, tarantonight ... most of UK Mil only functions thanks to the SNCOs/WOs.
I was luckily taught and battered by WOs/MACR during my first 2 commissioned tours. It was a sound foundation for the remaining decades.
I was luckily taught and battered by WOs/MACR during my first 2 commissioned tours. It was a sound foundation for the remaining decades.
Usual stereotypical responses. Why waste money on de-educating the odd half-decent proper officer candidate to spend a year on the lower decks learning how to hklp only then to dump them back into officer training to re-educate them back to being socially acceptable officers. Wait a minute, the last RAF mess had individuals in collarless t- shirts and jeans eating take-away pizzas. Perhaps the challenge ain't that great😏
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JB makes a very good point. The system used in the military will not work in the police due to the unique nature of the work.
There are many faults with 'The Police' as an organisation, but the vast majority are trying to do the best they can against the same budget cuts - something I know the military are suffering. Anyway, I digress, sorry - a senior manager from the retail world who is a direct entrant at Superintendent level could, in theory, SIO (run) a Cat A murder,i.e, a murder without very many clues, or one with OCG (Organised Crime Group). Chaos would ensue!
A UK Force employed 3 Direct Entrants in the last couple of years and I feel fairly confident in saying non are still in situ.
If it ain't broke - as it were - don't try and fix it.
I don't ever recall the Government suggesting Group Captains should become Flt Sgts!!
TN.
There are many faults with 'The Police' as an organisation, but the vast majority are trying to do the best they can against the same budget cuts - something I know the military are suffering. Anyway, I digress, sorry - a senior manager from the retail world who is a direct entrant at Superintendent level could, in theory, SIO (run) a Cat A murder,i.e, a murder without very many clues, or one with OCG (Organised Crime Group). Chaos would ensue!
A UK Force employed 3 Direct Entrants in the last couple of years and I feel fairly confident in saying non are still in situ.
If it ain't broke - as it were - don't try and fix it.
I don't ever recall the Government suggesting Group Captains should become Flt Sgts!!
TN.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/sorry-i-compared-bobbies-to-binmen-says-yorkshire-police-chief-who-didn-t-want-to-pound-the-beat-1-7928915
Good Point (again)
Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?
TN.
Last edited by tarantonight; 17th Mar 2017 at 23:38.
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I think, just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should - Adam will have learned a priceless and very bruising lesson about his new role - at least, one which those who follow him won't make. I don't think that having experience in a role makes one automatically better qualified for it. If civpol approaches SNCO/Warrant Officers, as it does, and asks them to join as PC with quick promotion to Sgt/Inspector, I can't see why, in principle, it shouldn't be able to identify a Sqn Ldr and transfer in skills at that level, too. Are crime fighting skills as readily transferable to war fighting? Probably not. That's not to say you shouldn't trash the culture of an organisation by not paying due service to its traditions, culture and values though. Hence my first point.
QUOTE
Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?
That is a huge disparity of rank, is it not?
Supt about on a par with Sqn Ldr?
For Group Captain, one needs about Commander or a very senior Chief Super?
Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?
That is a huge disparity of rank, is it not?
Supt about on a par with Sqn Ldr?
For Group Captain, one needs about Commander or a very senior Chief Super?
When I was at Exeter University in the early 90s I became very friendly with another mature student, a Met Police inspector who was given 3 years off to do a degree. The thinking was that to allay any resentment about the fast track scheme, selected serving officers were given the opportunity to get a degree. My chum was on full pay, of course, and while we were scrimping and saving on a grant (they still gave them then) he was not only getting his £30k pa or so (I guess) he also got "plain clothes allowance" to pay for his jeans and t-shirts, as he wasn't in uniform! That, and a return rail warrant to London each term, and he was in clover.
He ended up as a superintendent on royal protection duties, so he had a successful career, but whether or not his taxpayer funded history and politics degree was ever any use to him is another matter!
He ended up as a superintendent on royal protection duties, so he had a successful career, but whether or not his taxpayer funded history and politics degree was ever any use to him is another matter!
QUOTE
Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?
That is a huge disparity of rank, is it not?
Supt about on a par with Sqn Ldr?
For Group Captain, one needs about Commander or a very senior Chief Super?
Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?
That is a huge disparity of rank, is it not?
Supt about on a par with Sqn Ldr?
For Group Captain, one needs about Commander or a very senior Chief Super?
Whether a senior or junior Chief Superintendent, it is only one rank above Superintendent.
TN.
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Just an aside on the subject of rank. When I left the RAF in the early 60's I joined one of the main UK IT developers. IT was called data processing at that time. Around a decade later I had risen to be a "senior manager" with around 1200 staff working for me and a very comfortable salary with all the fringe benefits. A comparison with RAF pay etc., would have placed me somewhere above that of a Group Captain.
Whilst the job was both challenging and enjoyable I felt I needed to do something else with my life, so I joined the Met Police as a Special Constable in South London. I was surprised to find that among my colleagues were a great variety of people including a barrister, a couple of medics and several other senior managers and academics. Whilst there was ample opportunity for us to "rise from the ranks" we were all happy to stay as just plain policeman plods. Happy to be accepted by the regulars because we were always there to do the more menial or to them boring tasks.
In the six years I served as a "special" I had ample opportunity to observe how the police organised themselves and managed people. They earned my greatest admiration. Whilst there was a rigid structure when it came to real policing - out on the beat each copper was largely an island, expected to make your own decisions, act upon them and cope with the consequences.
Apart from flying as PIC in an aircraft there are few direct comparisons with the RAF or the manner in which the chain of command works. It should therefore IMHO not be surprising that the rank structures due not directly map across.
Whilst the job was both challenging and enjoyable I felt I needed to do something else with my life, so I joined the Met Police as a Special Constable in South London. I was surprised to find that among my colleagues were a great variety of people including a barrister, a couple of medics and several other senior managers and academics. Whilst there was ample opportunity for us to "rise from the ranks" we were all happy to stay as just plain policeman plods. Happy to be accepted by the regulars because we were always there to do the more menial or to them boring tasks.
In the six years I served as a "special" I had ample opportunity to observe how the police organised themselves and managed people. They earned my greatest admiration. Whilst there was a rigid structure when it came to real policing - out on the beat each copper was largely an island, expected to make your own decisions, act upon them and cope with the consequences.
Apart from flying as PIC in an aircraft there are few direct comparisons with the RAF or the manner in which the chain of command works. It should therefore IMHO not be surprising that the rank structures due not directly map across.
Just an aside on the subject of rank. When I left the RAF in the early 60's I joined one of the main UK IT developers. IT was called data processing at that time. Around a decade later I had risen to be a "senior manager" with around 1200 staff working for me and a very comfortable salary with all the fringe benefits. A comparison with RAF pay etc., would have placed me somewhere above that of a Group Captain.
Whilst the job was both challenging and enjoyable I felt I needed to do something else with my life, so I joined the Met Police as a Special Constable in South London. I was surprised to find that among my colleagues were a great variety of people including a barrister, a couple of medics and several other senior managers and academics. Whilst there was ample opportunity for us to "rise from the ranks" we were all happy to stay as just plain policeman plods. Happy to be accepted by the regulars because we were always there to do the more menial or to them boring tasks.
In the six years I served as a "special" I had ample opportunity to observe how the police organised themselves and managed people. They earned my greatest admiration. Whilst there was a rigid structure when it came to real policing - out on the beat each copper was largely an island, expected to make your own decisions, act upon them and cope with the consequences.
Apart from flying as PIC in an aircraft there are few direct comparisons with the RAF or the manner in which the chain of command works. It should therefore IMHO not be surprising that the rank structures due not directly map across.
Whilst the job was both challenging and enjoyable I felt I needed to do something else with my life, so I joined the Met Police as a Special Constable in South London. I was surprised to find that among my colleagues were a great variety of people including a barrister, a couple of medics and several other senior managers and academics. Whilst there was ample opportunity for us to "rise from the ranks" we were all happy to stay as just plain policeman plods. Happy to be accepted by the regulars because we were always there to do the more menial or to them boring tasks.
In the six years I served as a "special" I had ample opportunity to observe how the police organised themselves and managed people. They earned my greatest admiration. Whilst there was a rigid structure when it came to real policing - out on the beat each copper was largely an island, expected to make your own decisions, act upon them and cope with the consequences.
Apart from flying as PIC in an aircraft there are few direct comparisons with the RAF or the manner in which the chain of command works. It should therefore IMHO not be surprising that the rank structures due not directly map across.
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Taxydual. "I kept saluting JO's and calling WO's Sir". What is wrong with calling Warrant Officer's "Sir" ? Out in the Colonies we were addressed as "Sir" or "Mr ........."
Re Warrant Officers, reminds me of shambling in the general direction of parked Argosy the morning following a serious night in the mess bar, "I am saluting YOU, sir!" rang across from the other side of the Muharraq parade ground.
Regret I didn't have the presence of mind to reply "And so you should be, Mr errm, err!"
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And as Sgt. Major Brittain would say (shout) to a new intake of hapless Sandhurst officer cadets
' I'll address you as sir and you'll address me as sir but when you call me sir, you'll bloody well mean it!'
' I'll address you as sir and you'll address me as sir but when you call me sir, you'll bloody well mean it!'
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Old Fella (#36).
Here in the home country, a Warrant Officer would also be addressed as "Sir" by an airman, and as "Mister" by an officer.
goudie (#38),
(the whole Post is a good read, if I say so myself !)
As for the subject matter, my view is that you should learn to take Orders before learning to give them - simple.
Danny42C (even Older Fella).
"... What is wrong with calling Warrant Officer's "Sir" ? Out in the Colonies we were addressed as "Sir" or "Mr ........."
goudie (#38),
Extract from my Post on "Pilot's Brevet" (page 194, #3874):
...it's amazing how much venom and dumb-insolence an experienced W.O. can put into a "Sir"...
...it's amazing how much venom and dumb-insolence an experienced W.O. can put into a "Sir"...
As for the subject matter, my view is that you should learn to take Orders before learning to give them - simple.
Danny42C (even Older Fella).
QUOTE:
Thought this might happen! It is difficult to compare the ranks, but I get your point. The rank of Commander in the police is not held in any provincial forces, only the Met and I think the City of London. The equivalent outside of London is an ACC - Assistant Chief Constable, an ACPO rank, so could perhaps be compared to the first Air/Flag rank etc.
Whether a senior or junior Chief Superintendent, it is only one rank above Superintendent.
It is exactly because I knew that [daughter and her husband both Met. Police] that I wrote "Commander or a senior Chief Super". Unless there is a rank between Chief Super and Commander in the Met., or between Chief Super and ACC elsewhere, I believe my initial post made my point as precisely as I could.
Semantics really.
Certainly the Superintendents who often [why?] lunched at RAF Leeming called Wg Co Flying "Sir" in about 1965 because I clearly remember making a mental note. It is the short term memory that is shagged these days!
Thought this might happen! It is difficult to compare the ranks, but I get your point. The rank of Commander in the police is not held in any provincial forces, only the Met and I think the City of London. The equivalent outside of London is an ACC - Assistant Chief Constable, an ACPO rank, so could perhaps be compared to the first Air/Flag rank etc.
Whether a senior or junior Chief Superintendent, it is only one rank above Superintendent.
It is exactly because I knew that [daughter and her husband both Met. Police] that I wrote "Commander or a senior Chief Super". Unless there is a rank between Chief Super and Commander in the Met., or between Chief Super and ACC elsewhere, I believe my initial post made my point as precisely as I could.
Semantics really.
Certainly the Superintendents who often [why?] lunched at RAF Leeming called Wg Co Flying "Sir" in about 1965 because I clearly remember making a mental note. It is the short term memory that is shagged these days!