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Some questions regarding Panavia Tornado parts including CSAS control unit

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Some questions regarding Panavia Tornado parts including CSAS control unit

Old 15th Apr 2017, 20:52
  #41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Fishtailed View Post
We'd just put loads of new FTI SUMS stuff on an ADV at Conningsby and it swept the wings with flaps down- didn't fly for years

Leon, that stick's never been in an aircraft


Jayviator, have you got an NHC?
I don't have a NHC, what is that?
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Old 15th Apr 2017, 20:57
  #42 (permalink)  
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Well, I followed what GR4techie said and guess what? it worked! so now I can put them into the max reheat position, combat is another matter, the same technique does not seem to work but I am not to bothered about that, I am happy to have it in max reheat.
Thank you GR4techie for that most helpful info!
I am still curious about those other controls on the throttles though!
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Old 15th Apr 2017, 21:11
  #43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by zero1 View Post
The leading edge of the fin was the HF-SSB antenna that connect the HF feed to the airframe ( I would need to see a photo to confirm). The photo of the CSAS is standard together with the AFDS (autopilot).
What would you need to see in the photo? in regards to the CSAS being standard it does look different to all the other images i have found of CSAS units, as it just has black square switch lights compared to the rectangular indicators with readable data on them, as was suggested this is probably a slightly different design for use with night vision goggles but i would like to find other images which are of the same type as mine.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 14:05
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jayviator View Post
Well, I followed what GR4techie said and guess what? it worked! so now I can put them into the max reheat position, combat is another matter, the same technique does not seem to work but I am not to bothered about that, I am happy to have it in max reheat.
Thank you GR4techie for that most helpful info!
I am still curious about those other controls on the throttles though!
-For Combat, is it not required to lift the throttle at its forward limit, then push it forward further? It has been many years since I worked on the Tornado F3 at Leuchars, but lifting the throttle lever seems to ring a bell...
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Old 3rd May 2017, 14:32
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Photoplanet View Post
-For Combat, is it not required to lift the throttle at its forward limit, then push it forward further? It has been many years since I worked on the Tornado F3 at Leuchars, but lifting the throttle lever seems to ring a bell...

Not in the GR1/4. Leon mentioned rocking a switch on the end of the throttles to select which radio, but that wasn't the case with the GR, the sector is on the stick.

The red button on the stick top when fitted to the GR was (is) the bomb release button.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 15:26
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I remember back in my early engineering days studying the Tornado's CSAS, It's an analog fly by wire system with mechanical reversion in the pitch plane. It was a marvel of analog engineering with a lot of fail tolerant/graceful degradation and analog voting to eliminate transients and nuisance warnings. Douglas had a similar but not nearly as elegant system they called Stability and Control Augmentation System which was used on the YC-15 prototype and was the baseline for the C-17 design before they switched to a digital quadruplex fly-by-wire system during the middle of the C-17's development.

And you might try lifting the throttle handles to move them to the "combat" position.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 18:34
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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KenV
The Tonka was a joy! FBW and fully integrated TFR Nav/Attack.
A strange thing with the T.Birds is that they seem to have a different pitch response from the rear seat control input. Certainly, I found that circuit work from the back seat of the T.Bird required a greater degree of finesse to avoid a stable PIO. A regular thing was the combination of degraded system approaches for training. A back seat, 67 wing, mech-mode, PAR was a good one! Of course, rollers (touch and go) from the rear are fun with no forward visibilty, as is demo dive/strafe, in the old jets with no forward sighting!

OAP
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Old 3rd May 2017, 19:34
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Ahh yes, the joys of backseat strafe - a careful selection of canopy rivet vs bush of the day.
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Old 3rd May 2017, 19:52
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post
Ahh yes, the joys of backseat strafe - a careful selection of canopy rivet vs bush of the day.


OAP
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Old 4th May 2017, 08:09
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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I never realised that the system was actually regularly degraded to Mech Mode in flight. I thought it was a last resort and was a pig to fly in that mode!
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Old 4th May 2017, 10:29
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Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
I never realised that the system was actually regularly degraded to Mech Mode in flight. I thought it was a last resort and was a pig to fly in that mode!
Yes, BTR training requirement. It was deemed worth the practice. Not used for routine flying about.

OAP
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Old 4th May 2017, 10:46
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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I heard Mech mode described as flying a whale
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Old 4th May 2017, 10:47
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Ah well, The CSAS could be degraded in flight to TRAINING Mech Mode which was not as bad as full Mech Mode. That was only practiced in the sim.
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Old 4th May 2017, 13:32
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Timelord
As I recall, the "training" entry into mech mode allowed the full up and running CSAS system to provide the mech mode system functionality, while keeping the CSAS system still powered but not contributing anything more than mech mode. This allowed the CSAS to remain effectively undisturbed although, as I understood it, giving mech mode function. I do not recall a "not as bad as" factor? Can you refresh me?

OAP
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Old 4th May 2017, 15:32
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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I think that you still have the rudder in Training Mech Mode whereas genuine Mech mode is just the tailerons.
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Old 4th May 2017, 16:18
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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^ yep, hence 20kt x-wind limit for trg mech mode and 10kt limit for real.
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Old 4th May 2017, 16:59
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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I'm confused by some of the later posts on "mech mode". I never flew a Tornado but my understanding of the system was that only the pitch plane had mechanical reversion. Is "mech mode" something different?
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Old 4th May 2017, 17:08
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Mech mode is mechanical control rods (complete with disconnects and crushable strut) between the stick and the tailerons, so providing roll and pitch. Normally the roll axis is augmented by spoilers so the reversion to mech mode looses some roll authority well as the rudder.
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Old 5th May 2017, 08:16
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Great replies Guys. I always thought the CSAS was a very good system. Apart from BITE failures, it was very reliable. I think I only had one or two minor in-flight degrades in nearly 1500 hours.

OAP
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Old 5th May 2017, 10:35
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking as someone who spent many hours rigging the mechanical run, can anyone tell me if there was there ever a consideration to make Tornado fully FBW? Given the reliability of the quadruplex system, was it an opportunity missed to remove all mechanical runs?
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