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Victor as conventional bomber

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Victor as conventional bomber

Old 2nd Jan 2017, 11:51
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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?400 and ?872 were probably WZ400 and XD872

WZ390 and XD871 were both 214 Sqdn a/c of my acquaintance.
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Old 2nd Jan 2017, 12:45
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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update

I worked in V bomber flight simulators and weapon carriage equipment and had to visit aircraft to take measurement.
As well as those tiny bombs there was a 22000lb one.
This is back to the jibes about the US army air force in WW2, that they carried lots of guns and a teeny weeny bomb.

Last edited by Exnomad; 2nd Jan 2017 at 15:15. Reason: addition
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Old 2nd Jan 2017, 14:40
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pontifex View Post
Gentlemen,

I wish I was clever enough to take a photo of my Valiant CoG slide rule to show you all the u/w bomb loading details. Can do the photos but can't do the complicated stuff to get it on your screens! I think they were also intended to hold photo flashes too as certain positions were annotated as "applicable to P.R aircraft only." The only photo flashes I ever flew with were in a separate compartment behind what would have been the bomb bay in a normal bomber.

RATOG was mounted externally on the fuselage. As a very young copilot I flew a RATOG trial with the BCDU at Wittering. It was very impressive but they then had to be dropped on a subsequent run over the field. Not very successful as the parachutes failed to deploy. If my memory serves a max weight Valiant 184000lbs? got airborne in less than 1000 ft. The captain on one flight was a Sqn Ldr Gibson and on another it was Flt Lt Hogg. The aircraft were ?400 and ?872. Keen historians can probably fill in the details. I also flew on a Water Meth trial but I cannot remember the details.
Max weight of the Valiant was 175, ooo pounds, IIRC , the Victor 1 185,000 Pounds, the VC10 151953 Kg, Sad isn't it !
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Old 2nd Jan 2017, 16:04
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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When the Valiants were broken up they wouldn't let me have the CofG slide rule out of XD814. It was on my inventory and the cockpit was subsequently sold to a film company for the film 'Thunderball', It was the first to go and I was told that the information on the slipstick was restricted so I couldn't have it. I kept my manuals but they got lost in various moves over the years.

The cockpit wasn't used in the end, they used a mock up of a Vulcan; too difficult to get the cameras in the right place.

Years later I knocked up a slipstick for the Sikorsky S76A using the Valiant's slipstick principle. Then somebody invented a programme for a Psion and that became the official tool.
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Old 2nd Jan 2017, 16:45
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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From Ken Trent's excellent book Bomb Doors Open, a description of what it was like to deliver his first 22000lb Grand Slam onto a submarine base near Bremen in March 1945:
If the aircraft had leapt when we delivered a Tallboy, it was nothing compared to what it did when we let go of the Grand Slam. Relieved of its 10-ton weight, the souped-up Lanc shot upwards like a rocket, pushing us all into our seats while the engines blared with noise. I felt as though I was being squashed down to just a few inches tall as my head pressed down through my shoulders; my arms felt like lead on the control column. Fortunately there was no other kite above us or it could have been disastrous... all of the 20 kites which had taken off landed safely and later photos showed we had dropped two Grand Slams dead on target and smashed two great holes right through the roof of the submarine base so the Germans had to abandon it after two years of work.
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Old 2nd Jan 2017, 23:27
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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About the internal effects of releasing that much weight that quickly from a bomber: during Linebacker 1 I was on a B-52D that EARed (Emergency Armed Release) about 60,000 pounds of bombs more-or-less instantaneously. There was definitely a lurch upward (the pilot later said around 1000 ft), but the real attention-getter was a loud "bong!" from the airframe as a lot of stresses suddenly rearranged themselves.

When it happens, you know it.
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Old 3rd Jan 2017, 14:15
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Lots of stresses suddenly rearranging themselves in an aircraft would worry me a lot, having (as I do) misgivings about engineers ever since university.
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Old 3rd Jan 2017, 17:36
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I do wonder if Tony Cunnane DID go supersonic over Paris. I saw Mach 1 indicated on my Victor conversion, clean aircraft at TTF on the high speed run. As I recall there was no Handling problem so it was probably just an indicated Mach no. and not true and I doubt if the instrument was correctly calibrated for that Mach no.

In BA we cruised our VC10s at Mach .84 indicated (same as the cruise Mach on a Victor 1 if I recall correctly,
.74 on the Valiant and the Canberra) but which was only .825 TRUE. So the Machmeter may not have been telling the true story ( no pun intended!) on the Victor with pods on it !

But as I said earlier, she certainly could go!

Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 4th Jan 2017 at 20:04.
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Old 3rd Jan 2017, 19:59
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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I was never a Victor driver ..... so ..... Cunnane was flying a B1A/K2P at 41,000 ft. The B1A was capable of 645 mph at 35,000 and had a ceiling of 55,000 ft. What the B1A was capable of at 41,000 I don't know (630?) but he had been cruising at 0.9 - 594 mph. Mach 1 at 41,000 is around 660 mph so maybe 30+ mph in a shallow dive over its presumed level max to get an indicated mach 1? Is that too big a leap?
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Old 3rd Jan 2017, 20:23
  #50 (permalink)  
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RF, not sure where you got your figures from but the Mk 1 were limited to 50,000 ft and the Mk 2 to 56,000 ft. These were set by the ability of the oxygen system. The Mk 2 might get higher but not that much.
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Old 3rd Jan 2017, 21:47
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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I am pretty sure that the photo was on the wall in the corridor of Ops at Marham in 1965.
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 08:09
  #52 (permalink)  
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TW, very probably, as you know Marham used to host the SAC Bombing crews and CinCinnati SAC would have visited and either asked for or was given a copy.
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 09:00
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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In fairness to Tony Cunnane, in his account of the incident he states that he "saw the mach meter hovering just over mach 1". You may well be right about inaccuracies in calibration, but all Tony could go on was the evidence of the instrument. What does surprise me is they had been cruising at .90. In general we used to cruise at .84 - maybe they were just in a hurry to get home after the detachment!

Btw I have a shrewd idea I know who the co-pilot was, and if I am right I am not in the least surprised!
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 09:54
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I once saw the tachometer "hovering just over Mach1". Round about 40K East of Greenland heading West. Paying insufficient attention we found ourselves in mountain wave. Poor old autopilot trying to maintain height in a very strong up flow. Throttles closed, airbrakes out. Then we got into the downside of the wave. It took a little while to get back to straight and level! And this was in a perfectly standard tanker.
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 19:52
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Excellent thread. I first encountered the Victor as a B2R / Blue Steel combination in 1965. I went back to the same aircraft in 1980 when they were K2s.
Was the B2 ever used in a free fall role or was it Blue Steel only?
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 20:09
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pontifex View Post
Yes, I once saw the tachometer "hovering just over Mach1". Round about 40K East of Greenland heading West. Paying insufficient attention we found ourselves in mountain wave. Poor old autopilot trying to maintain height in a very strong up flow. Throttles closed, airbrakes out. Then we got into the downside of the wave. It took a little while to get back to straight and level! And this was in a perfectly standard tanker.
But what was the MACHMETER reading, sorry, hat, coat!
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 20:42
  #57 (permalink)  
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The Oberon, the Mk 2 was limited to Blue Steel only. Interesting to speculate what would have happened had the Valiant remained as a tanker.

I think the Mk 1 would have disbanded in the same way as the Vulcan. Then the Mk 2, post Blue Steel may have disbanded too. Its wing was much more flexible and subject to fatigue. In training it had been limited to 220kt compared with the Vulcan at 240 and a dash of 350.

In its tanker version it was re winged with a shorter span.
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Old 21st Jan 2017, 22:19
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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The initial post picture, was taken by an 81SQN PR7 out of Tengah, and was staged over Song Song range, 90-way used, 15-millisecond setting, (100 - 500 being more realistic settings to use). As the stick fell away, the PR7 pilot banked a little too steeply as release was called. The first few were off the bottom of the frame before the last had left the bomb bay.
On return from sortie, the Photo Recce Lab guys said that they could take care of that, and the following day, two frames were joined with no visible indication of the image being a composite of two, and all 35 were seen in all their glory.
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Old 22nd Jan 2017, 08:38
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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TTN
Ref your post "36" I had a walk round the "various bits" of XH648 in hanger 5 on Friday.
There is a commitment to restore her and having both flown in and worked on her I was saddend to see what had become of her, looking at the amount of corrosion she carries, some in the most akward of places. I do understand that there is an appeal for funding in place somewhere in excess of 400K, but not sure of the politics of a begging bowl here and in the context of comments elswhere regarding the "VTTS" debacle.

cliver029

Last edited by cliver029; 22nd Jan 2017 at 08:47. Reason: commas and stuff
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Old 22nd Jan 2017, 08:58
  #60 (permalink)  
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Cliver, I would guess an appeal would depend wholly on the credibility of the project team.
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