RAAF 50th Reunion

[SpazSinbad]

Yes. Along with an offsider (seen in first instance) for safety, they would recover the bridle from the bridle catcher ASAP.

[tartare]

Aha - I see!
That is a crazy small cat stroke - and quite an extraordinary degree of acceleration - even for a jet as compact as the Skyhawk.
Like taking off from, and landing on a matchbox.
I had never realised how tiny the Aussie carriers were.
It must have been incredibly challenging.
What speed did you aim to nail as you hit the deck?
And I thought an F4 made the Ark Royal look small...

[Three Wire]

On optimum Alpha at Max carrier landing weight, it was 128KIAS. Less the wind over the deck, probably 104kts ground (deck) speed. Deceleration approximately 4g.

[SpazSinbad]

This recent thread has a lot of information about the catapult, arrest & deck size comparison along with a graph for A4G Weight, Optimum Angle of Attack for Approach KIAS starting from here and scroll down the pages, particularly on page three (2nd URL):

Cat stroke 100 feet with a lateral acceleration of 5-6G depending upon circumstances. Day deck landings were OK within weather/sea limits whilst night deck landings were (as noted by all naval aviators) .....

Not perhaps well known: it seems because of previous Sea Venom pilot deck landing experience (requiring a short curved approach because for the Venom Pilot seeing the mirror must have been difficult over that bulbous nose obscuring the view) the early A4G circuits were carried out at 400 feet AMSL, rather than NATOPS height of 600 feet. 400 was my preference because the mirror could be picked up at least half way around a level base turn and flown for a short straightaway (less chance for error perhaps). The 600 footer required a 'descending' base turn which to me was not as precise, but mandated by the USN trained LSOs, during the latter part of the cruise. The higher downwind allowed a better look at the carrier but I still preferred the 400 footer.

Night landings were always from a CCA to one mile with perhaps the controller continuing to talk till about the half mile then - oh the horror.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ml#post9705103
&
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ml#post9710043

[SpazSinbad]

About 'small': I have not operated from a large deck carrier with a large angle - although some VF-805 pilots later cross decked aboard USS Enterprise. Cannot recall angle of HMS Eagle [8.5 degrees] but being my first roller deck landings what did I know. The 5.5 degree angle deck of MELBOURNE made line up easier I would imagine; whilst I do not recall the 'burble' - or that term being used - at all. So I'll guess it must have been minimal. MELBOURNE rarely made smoke during flight ops to my knowledge whereas some old 'boilers' made muchos smoke.

Having mastered approaches through the downdraught of Runway 26 at NAS Nowra (the cause of many wrecks - some fatal Sea Venoms - it even caught a RAAF Caribou) any burble must have been just a bump in the road. We did MADDLS Mirror Assisted Dummy Deck Landings (or FCLP) on RW 26 at night with sometimes a strong westerly wind. No worries - A4G had great power response at landing weights. All airfield lights were out along with as many of the base/married quarter lights as possible, with the MELBOURNE deck marked out with portable limpet lights, which could bounce alarmingly undamaged if hit by aircraft wheels, LSOs said.

One rough day I was 'long in the groove' (probably due new 600 foot circuit height) and I allowed my scan to encompass the stern of MELBOURNE doing a tight barrel roll - then went back to soda straw vision of MEATBALL - LINE UP & AIRSPEED (Optimum Angle of Attack) and never again did my vision go wide.

[tartare]

A sweeping 400 foot approach onto a deck that size and doing the same thing at night... I take my hat off to you guys.
You mentioned downdraft on 26 at Nowra - googled it and read this noting ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
1. SEV downdraft may be experienced WI 1NM on final RWY 26 during westerly wind ABV 7KT. Assume that was due to waves off hills to the west? 26 now seems to be closed on google earth

[Ascend Charlie]

There was a story circulating in the 70s when our War Canoe was still operational, where some A-4s were invited to do some crashes and dashes on a large US carrier.

The lads loved it, and in return invited the US boys to come and do some on ours. The USN arrived in the circuit, took a look at the size of the boat, said "Y'all gotta be kiddin'!!" and flew back to their boat.

[SpazSinbad]

'tartare' the night approach was a long CCA Carrier Controlled Approach, more or less the same as a GCA Ground Controlled Approach. The 4.4Gb PDF has heaps of info about carrier landings from the beginning until today with the F-35B/C. Amongst the heaps are pages about how a Sea Venom radar was installed on HMAS Melbourne (and other HM carriers) to become the CCA radar with it unseen in the metal dome aft atop the island.

There is nothing to be seen except blackness at sea at night until perhaps at one mile the bright mirror lights are seen (but early on difficult for me to differentiate). From my reading I believe the USN OLS Optical Landing System has much better viewability from a greater distance, however they do precision instrument approaches. The A4G with the early TACAN on MELBOURNE did not have sufficient resolution for any pilot instrument approach, except to a CCA pickup.

The runways of NAS Nowra are on a tabletop about 300 feet above terrain. To the east the ground drops away dramatically in a gully running more or less west to east for the under run of RW 26. With the strong westerly winds the turbulence can be violent everywhere in the circuit. One night a Sea Venom crew ejected after turning downwind in this turbulence, striking treetops during the rollout. First night ejection in ADF - both OK.

I think I can attach a zipped PDF here of some size so I'll attempt this soon with some pages about RW 26 and the downdraught. Yes the runway is closed because the arresting system is being removed AFAIK. It will reopen I'm told once that is complete but I do not know for sure.

My SP Senior Pilot on VC-724 put the fear of god in me about the downdraught on Runway 26. The Vampire had woeful engine acceleration from low RPM whilst the Sea Venom was better with an engine control unit, the VAMP just had your steady left hand. In the A4G and Macchi the throttle could be slammed open but in the Macchi one would rather NOT do that. Two pilots and a passenger died in two Sea Venom crashes due to downdraught Runway 26. Other Sea Venom downdraught crashes caused minor injuries.

An attempt c.1970 was made to fill in the underrun gully a little bit by scrapping the hill in the overrun of the same runway, transporting the dirt by dump trucks on a temporary road. It reminded me of the guy in hospital, covered completely in bandages, in CATCH 22, who had tubes running from one end to the other that were reversed every once in a while. The new dirt moved the downdraught effect further away from the threshold but did not ameliorate the lethality if one was negligent.

The RAAF Caribou was the first doing a tour of Oz demonstrating ability in 1964. Even though they were warned (as we were on base RW 26 every time) about the downdraught they underestimated the effect to end up smashing onto the concrete before the piano keys, clipping the wheels on the concrete lip (a road was causing this effect) then breaking the back of the aircraft with the wings flopping onto the runway. Some crew were injured.

I see a 7Mb PDF is allowed so I'll try that soonishlike.

[SpazSinbad]

Attached 36 page PDF has most of the relevant PDF pages about the downdraught on RW 26 at NAS Nowra with info on the crashes. No URL/links are live in this PDF because it has been 'reprinted' (prn) to reduce the file size. Upload failed so I'll try again.... Failed again as PDF under 7Mb.... Failed again as a ZipPDF at 6.2Mb. Dunno. The file could be uploaded to GoogleDrive with a direct URL but not sure if one has to register with a direct link. Untried.

GaGaDrive Link should work for viewing & download: always best to download first & then view with latest Adobe Reader suitable for your operating system. However I see for this 'reprinted' PDF that whatever is used on GoogieDriveBy views this PDF OK - for any other PDFs use method described please.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9...kpMVDA1SDU5dGM

[tartare]

Spaz - have you considered setting up your own website?
Given the wealth of info and documents you've got, as well as great yarns, it'd probably be very popular.

[SpazSinbad]

That story about 'large carrier pilots' is probably apocryphal. As well as using USS Enterprise as an airfield (so described in a story about the adventure) our A4Gs also plonked on USS Kearsarge (described earlier in the other thread) as well as USS Ticonderoga c.1971-2 and that was that to my knowledge BUT SADLY I do not know everyfing.

Please recall that an A-4B from da USN was the first Skyhawk to arrest and catapult from HMAS Melbourne back in 1965 - so dere is dat. 'HOLY ****! he said after the catapult. No one heard what he said on the first downwind.

I've been at this humungous PDFing for a dozen years or so - using various download websites - sometimes managed by moi and then GoogieEggDrive and WunDrive sprung up so I brieved a sigh of relief to use their convoluted ever changing download good stuff. This FAAAA URL is a good start point because there are explanations about 'how to'. You cannot believe the troubles people can have downloading but some get it right because they read the instructions: (look around both sites for more PDFs/videos)

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/

[SpazSinbad]

Tinkers arrest aboard ENTERPRISE a TOY STORY from Navy News 28 July 1978 http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default...ly-28-1978.pdf

"...it was just like being a CRAB pilot landing on a runway..."

[SpazSinbad]

FWIW at ScribD there is now a 56 page 10.5Mb PDF about the Downdraught RW 26 at NAS Nowra along with info about the first night ejection in the ADF due strong westerly wing circuit turbulence: as always best to download the PDF and then view it with the latest ADOBE READER suitable for your operating system.

https://www.scribd.com/document/3451...asNowraPP56prn

During the Sea Venom/Gannet era there were no LSOs aboard MELBOURNE. However the Venoms had the Observer in the right seat calling out the airspeed - a luxury I never experienced - only flying from the runways at Nowra with my head on a swivel back and forth peering out over the bulbous nose for the portable mirror/runway and back to airspeed. Anyhoo.... the graphic is a page from the 805 era squadron line book.

[SpazSinbad]

There may be better '1st person' carrier approach videos out there however AFAIK this one best illustrates the technique used by the old 'visual' approach A4G pilot. From what I have read current USN pilots tend to use the very accurate instruments to gauge distance downwind for example. To do it by 'eye' as seen by this Etendard pilot - with head swivelling - is the example needed. If you can see about half way around base turn the A4G pilot would pick up the meatball in the mirror and then fly it. At the same time the aircraft must 'cross the wake' of the carrier to line up on the angle deck centreline then 'nibble' to the right - perhaps - if already lined up to remain lined up (the angle deck centreline is always moving to the right during the approach).

Other Etendard videos show manic control movements that don't appear to be sped up - they show the pilot doing his thing. Some pilots may try to be smooth - others more concerned with accuracy and less with the smoothness. I cannot say I have not flown the Etendard.

USN pilot carrier approach videos appear to be edited so as to not show the complete approach and/or the canopy bits are in the way. In this video we can see that the meatball appears 'high' but that is the camera view. The pilot is likely seeing the meatball lined up accurately with the datum lights (again a guess).

The angle of attack indicator is almost impossible to see [it is on left of HUD and seems to be always dim] but sometimes it shows the 'circle' which is Optimum and sometime - very briefly - it flashes to top but then back to OPT. Mostly I cannot discern what it shows but likely always at Optimum AoA.

Carrier Charles de Gaulle, Etendard trap

You Tube

[SpazSinbad]

How's the reunion org going 'ULH Extreme'? Got a second wind here for some more course photo URLs with MUGshots:

No.65 Pilot Course:
RAAF Radschool Association - Course Photos

No.66 Pilot Course:
RAAF Radschool Association - Course Photos

[SpazSinbad]

I guess this Oz Navy News item should go here because it relates to a No.67 Pilot Course member (rather than go in the ANZAC Day thread - however two other RAN pilots are involved in the 'news' one trained in the USofA though I think - Mick Perrott was on No.61 Pilot Course 1967). Anyway 6 years on and miles to go... https://www.faaaa.asn.au/tribunals-r...ranhfv-awards/

"...Commodore Farthing and Captain Ray requested that SBLT Perry receive the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) and Commander Bell believes that he should receive the Victoria Cross for Australia (VC) for ‘his night of outstanding bravery’..." https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/...7/05/Perry.pdf (190Kb)

LCDR Farthing CO at the time of RANHFV3 which Andy Perry was on was also our Division Officer during Basic Aircrew Training earlier at HMAS Cerberus beginning of 1967. LCDR Bell (at that time) is seen as the passenger with CMDR N.E.Lee (Nelly - geddit) in the very last Vampire flight video but was CO of various helo squadrons in early 1970s - CAPT Ray? Dunno.

BZ Andy - I'm hoping things go well.

[SpazSinbad]

Never have so many words been explicated for little result but one hopes that soon it will all end well. GO ANDY! :-)

[SpazSinbad]

Yet another inquiry for RANHFV includes "service at the Battles of Fire Support Bases Coral and Balmoral."

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/inquiry-military-honours/

[SpazSinbad]

An 'almost' RAN FAA History PDF available here: Johnno aka 'Meatball' was our first fast jet A4G LSO trained in the USofA - youse know Clive Mayo... There are plenty of other relevant Clive Mayo & Andy Perry stories therein but I'll leave for youse to read.

We Envy No Man On Earth Because We Fly. The Australian Fleet Air Arm: A Comparative Operational Study. 2016 Sharron Lee Spargo

"...Naval aviation has little in common with that of land-based flight, such as the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), which is a wholly land-based operation. The advantages of aviation in the maritime environment are obvious and distinct and naval aviators contend with a multitude of variables not experienced by their Air Force counterparts. Here Australian Navy Skyhawk pilot Keith Johnson explains why:

Many naval aviators are often asked, ‘Why join the navy to fly in preference to the Air Force?’ According to most, the primary reason was the challenge of operating from an aircraft carrier at sea. The three light fleet carriers to serve with the RAN all had one thing in common; their deck could move up and down many feet in as many seconds, offering a test of skill and professionalism not available in other forms of flying. A sea-going airfield presented other challenges too. The carrier could sail more than 2,000 miles in a week, with rapid changes in climatic conditions and introducing new terrain to test the pilot’s navigational skills. But the naval flyers’ greatest test was the launch of the aircraft with the aid of a catapult and landing on a tiny moving runway using the arrester wires. Before any attempt at carrier operations could even be envisaged, each pilot would be requested to make 100 simulated deck landings at NAS. This was normally followed by 20 carrier landings and a similar number of take offs before the more demanding task of night launches and landings."

"...Like all aircrew of the aircraft carrier era, Rogers completed his training with the RAAF and was awarded his wings. This milestone did not qualify Rogers to fly with the navy; further training had only just begun. Rogers explains that in the age of aircraft carriers gaining your ‘wings’ was only the beginning for naval aviators as the navy ‘take you back to Nowra and teach you to fly.’ Fellow pilot Clive Mayo clarifies this statement:

You learn the basics with the Air Force and then the navy teaches you to use the airplane. When you get back to Albatross we will teach you how to use the airplane, not just to fly it, but how to use it and take it to its limits. Without ammunition the Royal Australian Air Force would be the world’s most expensive flying club.

Flight training, either fixed-wing or rotary, is a dangerous undertaking that few members of the FAA forget. Dowsing recalls his initial training being challenging on many levels with a high percentage of trainees lacking the essential component - determination:

It’s a highly demanding job, both in terms of the job and just getting there, the learning process. I’m using a pilot as the example because that’s the one I’m comfortable with, but anyone can learn to fly, a monkey can fly, it’s just whether you’ve got the time to teach him. With time comes expense. In my course more than 50 percent didn’t pass the course. I started with 11 navy guys and three of us actually finished, two of us are still in the navy. You’ve really got to want to do it, it will test you, to become a pilot is a damn hard course, physically, mentally and academically.

&
"...Pilot Clive Mayo recalls his lucky escape and the unexpectedness of getting shot and wounded in flight:

It was May 21st 1970 and it was my American co-pilot Ted Muellers’ first flight in country. It was a combat assault in Ben Tranh and we were flying number three, in formation, and I said to Ted, I think you’d better take it because I think I’ve been hit. He just took the bloody aircraft off me, got on the radio and started screaming; ‘the AC’s been hit! The AC’s been hit!’ I said for Christ’s sake Ted, shut up! The Iroquois had quick release bolts on the pilots’ seats so that if someone got hurt the crew in the back could pull the pins out of the front seats and just throw the pilots’ seat back on its arse into the back of the aircraft so they could render first aid. I’d been hit by shrapnel all down my arm although I didn’t really feel anything, just looked down at my glove and there’s blood seeping through. The next thing I know I’m flat on my arse in the back of the aircraft and I’m bandaged from shoulder to fingers. I couldn’t fly and Ted’s in a panic and all over the place. I took the cyclic and he’s got the collective just to stay in formation and then I got the crew chief to take off most of the bandages so I could take control. When we eventually got back I had a good look at my arm, it was a bit of a mess with lots and lots of holes. It seems a couple of rounds have come into the aircraft, shattered and picked me up on the way past. There were holes in the instrument panel but nothing life threatening. I finished the day and then saw the medics at Bearcat.

The skills needed to operate and survive in Vietnam were many and Mayo recalls incidents where pilots demonstrated them all:

We did some awesome formation flying in Vietnam. We got blasé in formation; I mean in 1400 hours I was up there probably at least 1100 hours were in formation of 10. We got so blasé that we would fly with our wings overlapping the bloke next door. There were a few mid airs but no one was killed but a few airplanes got broken. The maintainers with whom we still have a very strong bond, used to say ‘for Christ sake you blokes, stop flying so bloody close you keep breaking these bloody things!’ You could bring an aircraft back full of bullet holes and they’d patch it up overnight and you could go out the next day and get some more and it was ‘can’t you blokes stop getting this ****, stop doing this ****!’ Sorry. There were some very good days but there were some very bad days.

On entering the mess at Nowra one night after returning from serving in 9 Squadron RAAF in Vietnam, John Brown was met with aggression:

When I first got back to Nowra I walked into the mess one night with my ribbons on and a commander, not an operational type, he was a supply commander, turned to me and said ‘take that **** off! It’s not a real war!’ The XO at the time was Norm Lee [FJ pilot extraordinaire] and I complained to him about it and he went and reamed this commander out and that fixed that. There was a lot of aggro.

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/...use-We-Fly.pdf (2.2Mb)

[SpazSinbad]

Seems Andy either helps fly the HUEY in USofA or at least has flown in it as indicated in the story [US Army Sgt in photo but cropped out - there is a video but it runs very slowly - if at all]

Vietnam Veterans give therapy rides to fellow Vets in 1968 Huey Helicopter 24 Jun 2017 Leigh Martinez

"...EMU 309 is a Bell UH-1H Huey helicopter restored to its 1968 Vietnam War configuration..." Vietnam Veterans give therapy rides in 1968 Huey Helicopter - Story | KTVU

Photo: http://static.lakana.com/media.ktvu.....0_640_360.jpg