Former Paras prosecuted for Murder in 1974
Lest anyone need an example of how weak the position is of those who are bringing this prosecution against the two British Soldiers, have a read of the attachment. I could clearly remember the incident at the time and knew I could find reference to it. Indeed, with the IRA immune to prosecution for all their past acts of violence, this really does leave a bitter taste in the mouth when the moral position and justification of their behaviour and that of the British Army are compared. I wonder how the 'families' and the 'lawyers' for 'victims' of the British Army rationalize continuing to pursue the British Soldiers but leave the amnesty for the IRA and INLA in tact?
The HET is part of gettinng to the root of some of the killings, it is part of PSNI.
It involves the actions of all sides as it should.
racedo,
I'm not sure I follow your point, if HET are investigating the conduct of all sides, as it were, then they are surely wasting their time investigating either the PIRA, OIRA or any other Republican Terrorist/Resistance Group, because they are immune from prosecution. But they seem to be able to pursue British Soldiers whom I would have thought it was very difficult to prove that they acted with as little regard or consideration as the PIRA, OIRA, INLA or which ever other anti-British organization in Ulster.
I think anyway???
FB
I'm not sure I follow your point, if HET are investigating the conduct of all sides, as it were, then they are surely wasting their time investigating either the PIRA, OIRA or any other Republican Terrorist/Resistance Group, because they are immune from prosecution. But they seem to be able to pursue British Soldiers whom I would have thought it was very difficult to prove that they acted with as little regard or consideration as the PIRA, OIRA, INLA or which ever other anti-British organization in Ulster.
I think anyway???
FB
racedo,
I must confess to posting in ignorance, I often find I don't have the time to read through every post in a thread from start to finish. But your comment above prompted me to do so, belatedly so I admit. I take on board your claim that all are subject to HETs investigations.
But I was sure that all previous convictions and illegal acts were subject to an amnesty as a result of the GFA.
One more point though, are any former or current members of any of the terrorist organizations connected with Northern Ireland being pursued with a view to possible trial for murder and terrorism?
Also, I notice that you view all acts of violence on the part of various republican groups as a reaction to provocation by acts of violence by either the UDA, UVF or Security Services and Army. Can it not be seen th other way round? rather than heaping responsibility on to the shoulders of the British Authorities or unionist terrorists?
This is the same mentality which sweepingly avoids a judgmental approach to the atrocities of Daesh, but instead blames the US and UK for their behaviour, as if Daesh are somehow all below the legal age of responsibility.
FB
But I'LL stand corrected
I must confess to posting in ignorance, I often find I don't have the time to read through every post in a thread from start to finish. But your comment above prompted me to do so, belatedly so I admit. I take on board your claim that all are subject to HETs investigations.
But I was sure that all previous convictions and illegal acts were subject to an amnesty as a result of the GFA.
One more point though, are any former or current members of any of the terrorist organizations connected with Northern Ireland being pursued with a view to possible trial for murder and terrorism?
Also, I notice that you view all acts of violence on the part of various republican groups as a reaction to provocation by acts of violence by either the UDA, UVF or Security Services and Army. Can it not be seen th other way round? rather than heaping responsibility on to the shoulders of the British Authorities or unionist terrorists?
This is the same mentality which sweepingly avoids a judgmental approach to the atrocities of Daesh, but instead blames the US and UK for their behaviour, as if Daesh are somehow all below the legal age of responsibility.
FB
But I'LL stand corrected
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I think in this context I might have served but then risked Courts Martial for refusing to obey an order that might see me in a criminal court. We were briefed for one target and warned of the probability of collateral casualties. At that time, less than 20 years after WW 2 our leaders accepted civilian casualties in pursuit of military aims.
But I was sure that all previous convictions and illegal acts were subject to an amnesty as a result of the GFA.
It wasn't an amnesty it was Parole under license as witnessed by my comment on Michael Stone who was recalled to serve out his term.
One more point though, are any former or current members of any of the terrorist organizations connected with Northern Ireland being pursued with a view to possible trial for murder and terrorism?
Yup I posted that at Post 27 where gave 3 examples of arrests.
Also, I notice that you view all acts of violence on the part of various republican groups as a reaction to provocation by acts of violence by either the UDA, UVF or Security Services and Army. Can it not be seen th other way round? rather than heaping responsibility on to the shoulders of the British Authorities or unionist terrorists?
What I posted was consequences of actions.
In the case of McCann if it was a set up to eliminate him then the result was the shooting of 5 soldiers, 3 of whom died.
So if it was your son who was one of the 3, would you be happy to find that McCann killing was part of an operation to move a spy further up OIRA network and it was designed to eliminate McCann.
In relation to Stone, his actions in a cemetry are a direct cause of the 2 Corporals deaths. Loyalists were full of informers and he was a known killer (15-20 is guesstimate) so was he just "allowed" to get on with it with a blind eye turned.
I have used 2 examples where actions / reactions ultimately caused deaths of soldiers.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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I feel there are probably several top flight QCs in the UK who will be able to rip any prosecution case to shreds and will be happy to do so.
It must be a horrible feeling to find yourself facing Trial for Murder....while Terrorists who murdered are granted Parole/Amnesty for their crimes.
The situation in Northern Ireland always seemed so sad to me when it was going on....but this sad development just makes it so much more tragic.
The GFA should have been a blanket deal that should have ended prosecutions of any (everyone) who were involved in violence and served as the cornerstone for true reconciliation of all sides and groups.
The situation in Northern Ireland always seemed so sad to me when it was going on....but this sad development just makes it so much more tragic.
The GFA should have been a blanket deal that should have ended prosecutions of any (everyone) who were involved in violence and served as the cornerstone for true reconciliation of all sides and groups.
So if it was your son who was one of the 3, would you be happy to find that McCann killing was part of an operation to move a spy further up OIRA network and it was designed to eliminate McCann.
I have used 2 examples where actions / reactions ultimately caused deaths of soldiers.
I have used 2 examples where actions / reactions ultimately caused deaths of soldiers.
I'm not sure you can ever say that any action caused a further death down the line.
The late noble Lord Diplock:
"The jury … should remind themselves that the postulated balancing of risk against risk, harm against harm, by the reasonable man is not undertaken in the calm, analytical atmosphere of the court-room after counsel with the benefit of hindsight have expounded at length the reasons for and against the kind and degree of force that was used by the accused: but in the brief second or two which the accused had to decide whether to shoot or not and under all the stresses to which he was exposed."
It must be a horrible feeling to find yourself facing Trial for Murder....while Terrorists who murdered are granted Parole/Amnesty for their crimes.
The situation in Northern Ireland always seemed so sad to me when it was going on....but this sad development just makes it so much more tragic.
The GFA should have been a blanket deal that should have ended prosecutions of any (everyone) who were involved in violence and served as the cornerstone for true reconciliation of all sides and groups.
The GFA should have been a blanket deal that should have ended prosecutions of any (everyone) who were involved in violence and served as the cornerstone for true reconciliation of all sides and groups.
As posted previously it has included arrests of Republican and Loyalists for their actions plus looked at Security forces actions.
This is looking at reconciliation because it is examing all sides not just saying it happened and we won't look at it.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/...-majella-ohare
The above story is of a 12 year old girl, it took 35 years to get an apology.
From the Guardian report:
'trained killers': Correct! That's what military people do.
'warzone': Even the girl's mother accepts that there was a war going on.
When you send trained killers out to use firearms in a warzone, you can never feel safe.
'warzone': Even the girl's mother accepts that there was a war going on.
Gentleman Aviator
One has one's doubts about PSNI (ne RUC). The only Superintendants of Police in the UK who don't wear a crown as their rank badge are within the PSNI; they wear a single star.
For why? The crown is offensive to republicans! WTF!!! So that's well-balanced and even handed then.........
And I'm sure the HET investigations will be equally so........
For why? The crown is offensive to republicans! WTF!!! So that's well-balanced and even handed then.........
And I'm sure the HET investigations will be equally so........
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Comfort Letters
Is it now reasonable for serving personnel to request being issued with a Comfort Letter based on allowed actions being followed within stated RoE´s prior to being deployed on Ops ?
I suspect that the political types ( JM being the exception ) have no idea of the damage this is causing to the fabric of our military ethos, and in the case of the Labour Party probably don´t give a toss. With this insanity spreading, how long before somebody starts looking at the actions of various people during the Falklands conflict, GW 1, etc ?
As HMG seems to have no interest in protecting veterans, is now the time for personnel to start to take reasonable grounds to protect themselves from any future examination of their actions during times of conflict ?
I suspect that the political types ( JM being the exception ) have no idea of the damage this is causing to the fabric of our military ethos, and in the case of the Labour Party probably don´t give a toss. With this insanity spreading, how long before somebody starts looking at the actions of various people during the Falklands conflict, GW 1, etc ?
As HMG seems to have no interest in protecting veterans, is now the time for personnel to start to take reasonable grounds to protect themselves from any future examination of their actions during times of conflict ?
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Proon
Are we?
So you know without a shadow of doubt that these 2 particular men went on patrol that day with the pre-meditated intention of killing people whom they knew were not posing a threat to them?
This has become so much a piece of partisan folklore that the 2 former soldiers cannot hope to get a fair trial.
We are talking murder here.
So you know without a shadow of doubt that these 2 particular men went on patrol that day with the pre-meditated intention of killing people whom they knew were not posing a threat to them?
This has become so much a piece of partisan folklore that the 2 former soldiers cannot hope to get a fair trial.
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A petition has been started at:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/175138
With those such as Sir Gerald Howarth already raising concerns, it is hoped that this will gain some traction:
https://www.gerald4aldershot.org.uk/...rthern-ireland
What use it may do is another matter...
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/175138
With those such as Sir Gerald Howarth already raising concerns, it is hoped that this will gain some traction:
https://www.gerald4aldershot.org.uk/...rthern-ireland
What use it may do is another matter...
The Good Friday Agreement does not give immunity to HM Forces, only terrorists
I know it's only Wikipedia, but if I am wrong, someone with more of a legal brain let me know:
Both the British and Irish governments committed to the early release of prisoners serving sentences in connection with the activities of paramilitary groups, provided that those groups continued to maintain "a complete and unequivocal ceasefire". Cases were reviewed individually.[10] There was no amnesty for crimes which had not been prosecuted.
Our legal system is not free of political bias, the decision or not to prosecute anyone in cases like this is at the whim of Sinn Fein and our 'Government' desperate to throw soldiers to the wolves for political expediency.
Only the naive amongst us would sit comfortably and say this is a good, free and just decision.
Both the British and Irish governments committed to the early release of prisoners serving sentences in connection with the activities of paramilitary groups, provided that those groups continued to maintain "a complete and unequivocal ceasefire". Cases were reviewed individually.[10] There was no amnesty for crimes which had not been prosecuted.
Our legal system is not free of political bias, the decision or not to prosecute anyone in cases like this is at the whim of Sinn Fein and our 'Government' desperate to throw soldiers to the wolves for political expediency.
Only the naive amongst us would sit comfortably and say this is a good, free and just decision.
There was no amnesty for crimes which had not been prosecuted.
Therefore not possible to have a release of people who were never convicted of anything.
I believe it was demanded that no such clause be included for Security forces because the arguement was that you are then equating Security forces with Terrorists.
Afraid that the claim of Politcial Expediency doesn't hold up because were that the case then Soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday would have been on trial as well as a few more deemed controverisal incidents from all sides.
Sinn Fein is not pulling together any information on these cases................ it is PSNI.
There have been Republicans and Loyalists also arrested and charged with killings since GFA.................. so no amnesty for anybody not convicted.
The fact there have been so few cases is surprising.
I would let the law take its course rather than the outrage bus as soon as someone is arrested.
As said previously I doubt it will get to court or secure a conviction.
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"
Quote:
We are talking murder here.
Are we?
So you know without a shadow of doubt that these 2 particular men went on patrol that day with the pre-meditated intention of killing people whom they knew were not posing a threat to them?"
No - we're not saying they murdered anyone - that's why you have trial and a jury..... and you don't have to believe without a shadow of doubt - it has to be balance of probabliities to bring a case
"The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction. This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.
It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction."
Quote:
We are talking murder here.
Are we?
So you know without a shadow of doubt that these 2 particular men went on patrol that day with the pre-meditated intention of killing people whom they knew were not posing a threat to them?"
No - we're not saying they murdered anyone - that's why you have trial and a jury..... and you don't have to believe without a shadow of doubt - it has to be balance of probabliities to bring a case
"The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction. This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.
It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction."
Nope
What I posted was consequences of actions.
In the case of McCann if it was a set up to eliminate him then the result was the shooting of 5 soldiers, 3 of whom died.
So if it was your son who was one of the 3, would you be happy to find that McCann killing was part of an operation to move a spy further up OIRA network and it was designed to eliminate McCann.
In relation to Stone, his actions in a cemetry are a direct cause of the 2 Corporals deaths. Loyalists were full of informers and he was a known killer (15-20 is guesstimate) so was he just "allowed" to get on with it with a blind eye turned.
I have used 2 examples where actions / reactions ultimately caused deaths of soldiers.
What I posted was consequences of actions.
In the case of McCann if it was a set up to eliminate him then the result was the shooting of 5 soldiers, 3 of whom died.
So if it was your son who was one of the 3, would you be happy to find that McCann killing was part of an operation to move a spy further up OIRA network and it was designed to eliminate McCann.
In relation to Stone, his actions in a cemetry are a direct cause of the 2 Corporals deaths. Loyalists were full of informers and he was a known killer (15-20 is guesstimate) so was he just "allowed" to get on with it with a blind eye turned.
I have used 2 examples where actions / reactions ultimately caused deaths of soldiers.
racedo
So are you saying that all action by the British Army was unjustified but that the actions of the PIRA, INLA and any other kind of IRA, were justified as retaliation for the wholly illegal actions(every shot fired) of the British Army?
FB