Former Paras prosecuted for Murder in 1974
The Good Friday agreement granted absolution to the Nationalists convicted or suspected of atrocities in a craven abrogation of the law. Such an amnesty should also be afforded to those attempting to maintain a ceasefire between the factions in Northern Ireland
GFA granted Parole to all irrespective of whom they represented.
This Licensed parole was revoked on occasion particularly in the case of Michael Stone who tried to bomb Stormont in 2006.
His actions at Milltown in attacking a funeral for 3 IRA killed in Gibraltar and killing 3 directly lead to the savage murders of Corporals Wood and Howes.
He previously planned to travel to London and kill Ken Livingstone until Special Branch acted.
GFA applies to ALL not just PIRA/INLA/UDA/UVF/RHC................ it includes British Army and RUC.
In unlikely event of this even getting to trial which is a very long shot and a conviction even a bigger long shot the conditions of the GFA apply.
racedo, that is good to know. Though one should never hide behind 'I was just following orders', as many SS Nazi's did, I abhor the PC attitude of many in government who seek a witch hunt for their own political gain. IMHO, a previous PM is the worse culprit and should be tried for war crimes. As the saying goes 'He got us into this mess'.
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In unlikely event of this even getting to trial which is a very long shot and a conviction even a bigger long shot the conditions of the GFA apply.
I sincerely hope you are correct racedo but in the meantime these two guys have to go through all this crap again. I also hope they feel as confident of a good result as you do.
I am of a similar age and I know that I would feel absolutely destroyed if I was in their place.
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And as no military aircraft, aircrew or backroom staff have any involvement in this, surely this subject does not live in this forum! Oh, Conservative government has also been in charge of the country for 6 1/2 years. Blame them
Last edited by sidewayspeak; 17th Dec 2016 at 14:01.
Rudyard Kipling spoke for all Servicemen a century ago:
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot.
It's great to see these injustices righted, but Plod isn't going far enough. What about Fighter Command's shoot-to-kill policy in 1940? There's a few old pilots still around, you know. As for Bomber Command and their raids, there must be a few more collars to feel even yet. I'm sure the brave Mr Shiner would be glad to lead his brigade of gallant lawyers into action at very reasonable cost, another £million or two should do it.
Mind how you go!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot.
It's great to see these injustices righted, but Plod isn't going far enough. What about Fighter Command's shoot-to-kill policy in 1940? There's a few old pilots still around, you know. As for Bomber Command and their raids, there must be a few more collars to feel even yet. I'm sure the brave Mr Shiner would be glad to lead his brigade of gallant lawyers into action at very reasonable cost, another £million or two should do it.
Mind how you go!
Last edited by Geriaviator; 17th Dec 2016 at 12:09. Reason: Kipling quote added
Geriaviator,
In that post you display just how much you don't understand about murder and the the incredible responsibility and pressure that Government places on those who it decides can kill legally.
In that post you display just how much you don't understand about murder and the the incredible responsibility and pressure that Government places on those who it decides can kill legally.
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I feel sorry for these two former soldiers. Once again our government goes out of it's way to go after it's own troops that they sent to act as armed policemen; without the training.
I thought the GFA was supposed to bury the wrong-doing by both sides and bring an end to the troubles. Re-opening these cases will only bring those events to the fore again.
I'm sure no good will come of it and further undermines our Service Personnel, betrayed yet again.
I thought the GFA was supposed to bury the wrong-doing by both sides and bring an end to the troubles. Re-opening these cases will only bring those events to the fore again.
I'm sure no good will come of it and further undermines our Service Personnel, betrayed yet again.
Out Of Trim
Undermine? Betrayed?
We are talking murder here.
And please put it in context. The enquiry and investigation is looking at each and every one of the 3,000 or so deaths attributed to the troubles.
And the GFA applies to everyone concerned, not just a specific few.
Undermine? Betrayed?
We are talking murder here.
And please put it in context. The enquiry and investigation is looking at each and every one of the 3,000 or so deaths attributed to the troubles.
And the GFA applies to everyone concerned, not just a specific few.
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I'm sure the fact that the Attorney General for Northern Ireland was picked for the job by Sinn Fein, who then chose the Director of Public Prosecutions, and that they both had Gerry Adams as a former client, had nothing to do with the decision to prosecute former members of the military.... 
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Murder or Execution or Attempted Arrest of a known terrorist who was usually armed that went wrong. I don't know.
I wasn't there!
In a War, combatants on both sides get shot at. Just because this was a civil war doesn't change that sometime you have to defend yourself in battle. ie. Shoot first before they shoot you! The rules of engagement meant that these troops had one hand tied behind their back. Do you get shot while waiting until the ROE allow or take the shot in the hope you survive. A difficult call for anyone!
It seems strange that there was never an officer around when this was going on. Keeping there heads down probably.. REMFs would appear to apply.
Then 44 years later you may face prosecution by your own Country because an enemy that had already killed some of your colleagues had died. This is not murder in my opinion and should not be brought before a civil court. This stinks and I'm glad That neither I or .prOOne. were ever put in this position.
Just lucky I guess..
I wouldn't join again either, knowing that you would be hung out to dry by your own Government. Disloyalty by the Establishment like this will be remembered and will have far reaching effects in the future.
I wasn't there!
In a War, combatants on both sides get shot at. Just because this was a civil war doesn't change that sometime you have to defend yourself in battle. ie. Shoot first before they shoot you! The rules of engagement meant that these troops had one hand tied behind their back. Do you get shot while waiting until the ROE allow or take the shot in the hope you survive. A difficult call for anyone!
It seems strange that there was never an officer around when this was going on. Keeping there heads down probably.. REMFs would appear to apply.
Then 44 years later you may face prosecution by your own Country because an enemy that had already killed some of your colleagues had died. This is not murder in my opinion and should not be brought before a civil court. This stinks and I'm glad That neither I or .prOOne. were ever put in this position.
Just lucky I guess..
I wouldn't join again either, knowing that you would be hung out to dry by your own Government. Disloyalty by the Establishment like this will be remembered and will have far reaching effects in the future.
Last edited by Out Of Trim; 18th Dec 2016 at 11:28.
In other News
To really put this into perspective!
On the same day this was announced, an MP was advised he would NOT be prosecuted for offering to supply class A drugs to a couple of 'playmates' even though the evidence was on video and in the hands of the Police.
So much for justice being blind!?! Seems there is more than one set of criteria.
KB
On the same day this was announced, an MP was advised he would NOT be prosecuted for offering to supply class A drugs to a couple of 'playmates' even though the evidence was on video and in the hands of the Police.
So much for justice being blind!?! Seems there is more than one set of criteria.
KB
The law is the law - you can't pick or choose
They've just done a guy 101 years old for sex crimes in the 70's
Presumably they think they have enough evidence to stand up in court - it has to be tough after so long but just because you serve in the Armed Forces doesn't mean you can get away with murder..................... or anything else
They've just done a guy 101 years old for sex crimes in the 70's
Presumably they think they have enough evidence to stand up in court - it has to be tough after so long but just because you serve in the Armed Forces doesn't mean you can get away with murder..................... or anything else
Really? Rubbish......the law is applied selectively! This is a disgrace....if the law is the law, why did they give amnesty's to all the murdering scum who killed innocent men and women......not to mention the servicemen put in harms way by the cretins with their grubby hands on the levers of power?! While I'm at it, I also believe Alex Blackman didn't get a fair trial......give me strength!!!
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We are on a slippery slope. More of the same, much more of these sort of prosecutions will be the new norm. Look at the intakes of barristers and lawyers and what ethnic groups they are from. We have a British Pakistani London mayor. In the future our senior law makers will be from ethnic groups that aren't White British but similar... perhaps they wont look favourably on what has gone on in the early 21st century in Asia minor. I'll play the race card right now and say things will get much worse for serving people because of the scale of recent violence abroad.
No one below the rank of WO will be exempt. It seems to be always directed at gun carriers and not the swagger stickers.
No one is above the law, but I imagine its confusing for under educated young Britons about what they supposed to do, how hard they have to fight.
Which will make things harder to recruit quality in the future.
I'm just spelling it out in case someone reads this of influence.
No one below the rank of WO will be exempt. It seems to be always directed at gun carriers and not the swagger stickers.
No one is above the law, but I imagine its confusing for under educated young Britons about what they supposed to do, how hard they have to fight.
Which will make things harder to recruit quality in the future.
I'm just spelling it out in case someone reads this of influence.
Elsewhere I have offered the view that when questioned, the accused say that it's all so long ago and they have been subject to such trauma since, due to their service, that they can't remember accurately the things of which they are accused and so how can they offer a defence.
Furthermore, and given the disposal of weapons, they should demand the retesting of weapons used in the incidents and also demand that whoever countersigned the log in which the weapons issues were recorded is a key witness to testify.
If the security of the evidence trail is as robust as some, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that a smart barrister won't drive a coach and horses through the prosecutions case.
Old Duffer
Furthermore, and given the disposal of weapons, they should demand the retesting of weapons used in the incidents and also demand that whoever countersigned the log in which the weapons issues were recorded is a key witness to testify.
If the security of the evidence trail is as robust as some, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that a smart barrister won't drive a coach and horses through the prosecutions case.
Old Duffer
The claims of bias do not appear when you start looking at the details behind what is being looked at.
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov...nquiries-team/
Seems like there have been issues in relation to Historical Enquiry Team................"the HET treats state involvement cases differently as a matter of policy and this appears to be based on a misinterpretation of the law. This is entirely wrong, and has led to state involvement cases being reviewed with less rigour in some areas than non-state cases; and"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...m#cite_note-22
It has looked at all sides
Man arrested over 1977 murder of Guisborough soldier on tour of duty during Northern Ireland troubles (From The Northern Echo)
Northern Ireland: Man arrested over Kingsmill massacre of 10 Protestant workmen 40 years ago | The Independent
Veteran loyalist faces two murder charges connected to Troubles - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
As a result of killing of Joe McCann, OIRA shot 5 soldiers killing 3 in following day...........
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov...nquiries-team/
Seems like there have been issues in relation to Historical Enquiry Team................"the HET treats state involvement cases differently as a matter of policy and this appears to be based on a misinterpretation of the law. This is entirely wrong, and has led to state involvement cases being reviewed with less rigour in some areas than non-state cases; and"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...m#cite_note-22
It has looked at all sides
Man arrested over 1977 murder of Guisborough soldier on tour of duty during Northern Ireland troubles (From The Northern Echo)
Northern Ireland: Man arrested over Kingsmill massacre of 10 Protestant workmen 40 years ago | The Independent
Veteran loyalist faces two murder charges connected to Troubles - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk
As a result of killing of Joe McCann, OIRA shot 5 soldiers killing 3 in following day...........
Former paramilitaries, both republican and loyalist, were interviewed about their roles in the 40 years of violence which blighted Northern Ireland on the understanding that their accounts would not be made public until after their deaths.
But subsequent court rulings in the US have rendered that undertaking useless, as the PSNI were awarded custody of the tapes for investigative purposes.
But subsequent court rulings in the US have rendered that undertaking useless, as the PSNI were awarded custody of the tapes for investigative purposes.
No videos, no pictures and keep your mouth shut.
Situation:
Civillian shot by British soldier subsequently found to be unarmed.
Aye, a bit like Duggan was 'unarmed'.
There's always a reason; finding it may not be so easy.
IRA GUNS DOWN AIRMAN, INFANT DAUGHTER IN WEST GERMANY | Deseret News
Lest anyone need an example of how weak the position is of those who are bringing this prosecution against the two British Soldiers, have a read of the attachment. I could clearly remember the incident at the time and knew I could find reference to it. Indeed, with the IRA immune to prosecution for all their past acts of violence, this really does leave a bitter taste in the mouth when the moral position and justification of their behaviour and that of the British Army are compared. I wonder how the 'families' and the 'lawyers' for 'victims' of the British Army rationalize continuing to pursue the British Soldiers but leave the amnesty for the IRA and INLA in tact?
FB
Lest anyone need an example of how weak the position is of those who are bringing this prosecution against the two British Soldiers, have a read of the attachment. I could clearly remember the incident at the time and knew I could find reference to it. Indeed, with the IRA immune to prosecution for all their past acts of violence, this really does leave a bitter taste in the mouth when the moral position and justification of their behaviour and that of the British Army are compared. I wonder how the 'families' and the 'lawyers' for 'victims' of the British Army rationalize continuing to pursue the British Soldiers but leave the amnesty for the IRA and INLA in tact?
FB
Civillian shot by British soldier subsequently found to be unarmed.
Sounds like RUC had someone inside OIRA which suggests more than a chance encounter.
Maybe an attempt to remove someone to ensure a source moves higher up the pecking order.
