Creamed Off at BFTS?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
Creamed Off at BFTS?
Is it true that the RAF is now "Creaming Off" directly from the completion of BFTS for those when qualified to immediately instruct at BFTS? I knew that the RAF was desperately short of QFIs, however?
Don't know if it is happening now, but it has happened before, and that was when there was still a separate AFT on the Hawk.
You have to realise that there is no 'BFTS' now, as you or I knew it, and that the Tucano course (BFJT) is more advanced the BFT ever was. It's not quite as advanced as AFT was, and not on a jet (if that matters), but it has happened previously, and it did work.
You have to realise that there is no 'BFTS' now, as you or I knew it, and that the Tucano course (BFJT) is more advanced the BFT ever was. It's not quite as advanced as AFT was, and not on a jet (if that matters), but it has happened previously, and it did work.
As I recall it from late 70's though to the late 80's (as a student and a few years later as a non-creamie QFI at a BFTS and then CFS) I don't think remember anyone being sent to CFS directly out of BFTS, certainly all those I know of/worked with/taught were creamed off after AFTS ( Valley).
Last edited by wiggy; 6th Dec 2016 at 07:46.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
BV,
Since you are up with what if happening today in the RAF, are pilots being creamed/skimmed off from BFJT and if so what are your thoughts? Although personally never a fan of Creamies I understood the rational. I do, however, question the logic (apart from short term panic) in any pilot instructing prior to completing his/her own training?
Since you are up with what if happening today in the RAF, are pilots being creamed/skimmed off from BFJT and if so what are your thoughts? Although personally never a fan of Creamies I understood the rational. I do, however, question the logic (apart from short term panic) in any pilot instructing prior to completing his/her own training?
I believe they were known as 'Skimmies' and there were only a small number. Probably end of the 90's or very early 2000's
Would it be much the same as Assistant Instructors at a civilian flying school? Do the routine nitty gritty continuation training but not allowed to send off first solo or do nominated tests.
My QFI at the Towers in the 60s was a creamed-off QFI. Good guy to fly with and taught me a lot. Also first time I drove car at 100mph was in his TR2 on the Leadenham Straight.
Dominator.
I will never profess to be an expert in anything outside my (limited) sphere of influence so I can't say what is happening at BFJT. All I can say is we currently have Creamies on the Hawk T2. They have completed all of their Hawk training (Creamies were previously taken at the end of AFT rather than TW) and so are well placed to help their peer group through the course.
Nobody is ever a fan of creamies (harsh but predictable banter) but they definitely serve a purpose at the moment. Pre OCU holds and a shortage of Hawk QFIs makes for some easy maths.
BV
I will never profess to be an expert in anything outside my (limited) sphere of influence so I can't say what is happening at BFJT. All I can say is we currently have Creamies on the Hawk T2. They have completed all of their Hawk training (Creamies were previously taken at the end of AFT rather than TW) and so are well placed to help their peer group through the course.
Nobody is ever a fan of creamies (harsh but predictable banter) but they definitely serve a purpose at the moment. Pre OCU holds and a shortage of Hawk QFIs makes for some easy maths.
BV
Guest
Posts: n/a
I don't think the RAF ever had a dedicated cadre of permanent Instructors (except during the early part of the war, when we wanted large numbers of operational pilots quickly). Then they roped in all manner of too old for RAF service civilian instructors for full time duty (cf the poem "The Flying Instructor's Lament", which is on here somewhere).
But the general principle seems to have been that each generation of pilots had to teach the next. On the Arnold Scheme in the US, we sent over 7,000 + LACs ex ITW, got 4,000 + pilots back, and they kept 500 + "Creamies". Selection was at "Wings" stage. They were told that their function was to replace the American civilian Instructors who started up the six "British Flying Training Schools" which were opened (under RAF Command) in summer 1941 in parallel with the US Army Air Corps Arnold Schools.
Nevertheless, there was at least one RAF "creamie" (P/O MacMillan) at my Arnold Advanced School. The US Army used the same system: in their own Basic and Advanced Schools, all Instructors were "creamies" - and loud were the lamentations after Pearl Harbor when they saw their erstwhile schoolmates going off to fame, fortune, glory and promotion in the "Mighty 8th" while they were held back until they'd done 12 (?) month's Instructing.
Danny42C.
But the general principle seems to have been that each generation of pilots had to teach the next. On the Arnold Scheme in the US, we sent over 7,000 + LACs ex ITW, got 4,000 + pilots back, and they kept 500 + "Creamies". Selection was at "Wings" stage. They were told that their function was to replace the American civilian Instructors who started up the six "British Flying Training Schools" which were opened (under RAF Command) in summer 1941 in parallel with the US Army Air Corps Arnold Schools.
Nevertheless, there was at least one RAF "creamie" (P/O MacMillan) at my Arnold Advanced School. The US Army used the same system: in their own Basic and Advanced Schools, all Instructors were "creamies" - and loud were the lamentations after Pearl Harbor when they saw their erstwhile schoolmates going off to fame, fortune, glory and promotion in the "Mighty 8th" while they were held back until they'd done 12 (?) month's Instructing.
Danny42C.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: cheshire
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you think about it being head of 22Gp, or whatever "Training Command" is now called, must be a nightmare.
You spend 5 or so years planning for a 6 Sqn FJ force, Sentinel retirement, Herc retirement, etc and then WHAM everything gets thrown back up in the air. And on top of all that you are having to lock yourself into what I assume is a relatively inflexible long term contract in the form of Ascent/MFTS.
Not sure who is calling the shots but I don't envy them!
You spend 5 or so years planning for a 6 Sqn FJ force, Sentinel retirement, Herc retirement, etc and then WHAM everything gets thrown back up in the air. And on top of all that you are having to lock yourself into what I assume is a relatively inflexible long term contract in the form of Ascent/MFTS.
Not sure who is calling the shots but I don't envy them!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Norfolk
Age: 84
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was a creamie end of '59 and not a volunteer. Been an instructor/ examiner fixed/ rotary ever since. I think it was a good thing for the individual as it certainly straightened up your flying, but not convinced it was good for the students, at least not at the start of the instructing period.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Huntingdon,Cambs,U.K.
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The RAF has been posting first tour instructors directly back into the training units for most of its existence. As far as I am aware all such individuals completed basic and advanced training before being posted to CFS for QFI training. This applied to both the fast jet and multi training streams.
In 1964 I was posted to CFS on completing multi AFTS at Oakington as a so called creamed off (scummed off to the majority) NCO pilot. This involved a quick return to IOT at South Cerney for a (5 day) commissioning before CFS, as the system was averse to first tour NCO pilots teaching officer students.
By coincidence, after graduating as a brand new scummed off JP B2 QFI, I was posted back to Syerston on the same Flight from which I had been trained only 14 months previously. Many of my earlier instructors were still in residence!
In 1964 I was posted to CFS on completing multi AFTS at Oakington as a so called creamed off (scummed off to the majority) NCO pilot. This involved a quick return to IOT at South Cerney for a (5 day) commissioning before CFS, as the system was averse to first tour NCO pilots teaching officer students.
By coincidence, after graduating as a brand new scummed off JP B2 QFI, I was posted back to Syerston on the same Flight from which I had been trained only 14 months previously. Many of my earlier instructors were still in residence!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I have dim memories of a creamie on the F4 OCU around 1969. I think he had been creamed off and done a tour at Valley before posting to Coningsby on the OCU. As I say, just a dim memory.
As a student I felt I got better instruction from creamies at BFTS than AFTS. I think this was because the BFTS creamies had some context in which to give their instruction: they knew what skills were required to pass the next course. One exercise that particularly sticks in the mind from Valley was the max possible rate turn: creamies tended to be nibby about precise speeds and attitudes, whereas ex-front line guys tolerated a bit more inaccuracy and encouraged you to get your head out into the turn because you were supposed to be developing the skills required for air combat. Presumably "skimmies" had similar weaknesses at BFTS, having never experienced the next step.
I guess you could argue that the ex-ME and RW instructors at Linton never experienced Valley either. In my experience, though, most of them seemed to have been chopped at Valley in their own student days, and they were generally exceptionally pernickety when it came to teaching the skills on which they had themselves struggled, with good insights into potential areas for error. Which actually made their instruction highly valuable!
I guess you could argue that the ex-ME and RW instructors at Linton never experienced Valley either. In my experience, though, most of them seemed to have been chopped at Valley in their own student days, and they were generally exceptionally pernickety when it came to teaching the skills on which they had themselves struggled, with good insights into potential areas for error. Which actually made their instruction highly valuable!
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: humzaland
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of those creamed off from 7FTS at Church Fenton in the 60s came back there as a JP QFI and ended his instructing tour - successfully - in Standards. However unpalatable to budding hot-shots the system did work.
I was a lucky escapee of the creamy system. After completing AFTS at Valley, my boss asked if I would like to return as a creamy instructor. As I had really enjoyed the Gnat and there were assurances of tour of choice later, I acceded. My instructor heard this with horror and said what would happen was that the posting conference would say they did not like the idea of first tourists instructors on the Gnat and I would be sent to JPs.I was mortified.
Luckily, my boss interceded successfully and I was posted to the Lightning instead. A long love with fighters ensued. Thanks Boss.
Luckily, my boss interceded successfully and I was posted to the Lightning instead. A long love with fighters ensued. Thanks Boss.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you think about it being head of 22Gp, or whatever "Training Command" is now called, must be a nightmare.
When you think about it being head of 22Gp, or whatever "Training Command" is now called, must be a nightmare.
You spend 5 or so years planning for a 6 Sqn FJ force, Sentinel retirement, Herc retirement, etc and then WHAM everything gets thrown back up in the air. And on top of all that you are having to lock yourself into what I assume is a relatively inflexible long term contract in the form of Ascent/MFTS.
Not sure who is calling the shots but I don't envy them!
You spend 5 or so years planning for a 6 Sqn FJ force, Sentinel retirement, Herc retirement, etc and then WHAM everything gets thrown back up in the air. And on top of all that you are having to lock yourself into what I assume is a relatively inflexible long term contract in the form of Ascent/MFTS.
Not sure who is calling the shots but I don't envy them!