Sad to see "Winkle" Browns medals are up for sale.
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Sad to see "Winkle" Browns medals are up for sale.
One hopes they at least find a good home, the Fleet Air Arm museum would be my preferred home for them.
Bonhams : The Historically Important Post War C.B.E., Second World War D.S.C., Post War A.F.C., group of seven to Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown, Fleet Air Arm,
Bonhams : The Historically Important Post War C.B.E., Second World War D.S.C., Post War A.F.C., group of seven to Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown, Fleet Air Arm,
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For what it's worth my thoughts are that it's not in our place to judge, they are the families to do with etc... It may also be that the funds raised serve a better use to them than the medals would in a drawer. After all the best memories are the ones experienced and stored in our minds.
I would however agree that Yeovilton would be a good home for them.
I would however agree that Yeovilton would be a good home for them.
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Agree with you both, Sapper in saying "sad to see" I mean that in an open sale they can go anywhere, and not remain in the UK.
I'm with Always a Sapper on this one. As a former medal dealer I am delighted to see that Winkle Brown's medals are up for sale. There has in the past been far too much moral pressure put on families to donate very valuable medals to museums, depriving them of money which may otherwise have helped give them security in old age. If the Fleet Air Arm Museum wants them, let them bid - I have no doubt that they would be able to find the money. Medal collectors at this level are usually very serious military historians, so I have no doubt whoever buys them they will be going to a good home.
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I am in two minds about selling medals once the recipient has died. There's little point in the family keeping the medals if they will just sit in a box in a drawer and never see the light of day. Even selling/donating them to a museum may well mean the same fate; there are drawers full of medals at Hendon that will probably never be on public display. At least if they are sold to a collector, they will be cherished and almost certainly displayed, even if it is to a select number of individuals. Most medal collectors will try and research the recipient to try and put the medals in some sort of context. The story of the medals left to a family may well be lost within a generation or two.
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Not anywhere in the same league, but I am 'custodian' of the campaign medals of my father, grandfather and great-grandfather - as well as those of my wife's father, whose are somewhat more significant. They all properly mounted, and displayed in box frames alongside a relevant framed photo of the recipient.
As pert of a new will drawn up last month, they are all specified as items to be passed on to the next generation. We will remember them.
As pert of a new will drawn up last month, they are all specified as items to be passed on to the next generation. We will remember them.
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If they end up anywhere other than in the possession of the Royal Navy (in one way or another), then it will be a public scandal IMHO.
What does Union Jack think ?
MPN11, with you until great-granfather. Not sure about him, believe to have been in the army. Would have been during the Famine years in Ireland - "goin' fer a sojer" better than starving to death. Quite possible.
What does Union Jack think ?
MPN11, with you until great-granfather. Not sure about him, believe to have been in the army. Would have been during the Famine years in Ireland - "goin' fer a sojer" better than starving to death. Quite possible.
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G-G-F has the Egypt 1882* and Khedive's Star when a C/Sgt with the Scots Gds.
Tel-El-Kebir bar, so would have been there at the same time as L/Cpl Jones of the Warmington platoon
Tel-El-Kebir bar, so would have been there at the same time as L/Cpl Jones of the Warmington platoon
If they end up anywhere other than in the possession of the Royal Navy (in one way or another), then it will be a public scandal IMHO.
What does Union Jack think? - Danny
Thoroughly agree, Danny, although I could also see a case for a generous benefactor owning them but loaning them to, say, the FAA Museum, on the same principle as has been done with several VCs collected by Lord Ashcroft.
Jack
What does Union Jack think? - Danny
Thoroughly agree, Danny, although I could also see a case for a generous benefactor owning them but loaning them to, say, the FAA Museum, on the same principle as has been done with several VCs collected by Lord Ashcroft.
Jack
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Staying in family hands isn't perfect though.
I've known of (and seen many times) a Naval VC still in family hands for most of my life. The only people to have seen it are the guests of the family. It might have had far more viewings (and the action for which it was awarded be far better known) had it been sold into the hands of someone such as Lord Ashcroft.
I've known of (and seen many times) a Naval VC still in family hands for most of my life. The only people to have seen it are the guests of the family. It might have had far more viewings (and the action for which it was awarded be far better known) had it been sold into the hands of someone such as Lord Ashcroft.
Why should some medals be public, or available to the public? They are awarded to a private individual for acts which will often (particularly the ones involving gallantry) have left a last impact on the recipient.
To my mind the only person entitled to say what they want to happen to the medals is the recipient, and then its down to the family to do as they wish with them. If a VC is held in a boxroom and seen only by family then so be it - it is their relative and their wishes that matter, not anyone else. Let the family do as they wish, and if they don't want others to see them then so be it.
What matters is the citations, the stories and the history that must not be forgotten - not the medals themselves.
To my mind the only person entitled to say what they want to happen to the medals is the recipient, and then its down to the family to do as they wish with them. If a VC is held in a boxroom and seen only by family then so be it - it is their relative and their wishes that matter, not anyone else. Let the family do as they wish, and if they don't want others to see them then so be it.
What matters is the citations, the stories and the history that must not be forgotten - not the medals themselves.
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As time goes on many of the actions for which the top tier medals were awarded will be partially-forgotten, only to be found in specialist books/web-sites.
Sure, Arnhem, BoB, D-Day, Dunkirk etc will go on being remembered, but a VC awarded early in WWII for an act that disabled a major enemy capital ship and incurred the loss of over one hundred of our own men still warrants more than a mere page in history. The medal being on display will bring that action to many, and thus increase their understanding of the whole of the war, not just the selected highlights.
Sure, Arnhem, BoB, D-Day, Dunkirk etc will go on being remembered, but a VC awarded early in WWII for an act that disabled a major enemy capital ship and incurred the loss of over one hundred of our own men still warrants more than a mere page in history. The medal being on display will bring that action to many, and thus increase their understanding of the whole of the war, not just the selected highlights.
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Like this guy AA and the even more extraordinary tale about one mans task to make a tribute film
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Baskeyfield
http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/epic-...ail/story.html
Lord Ashcroft writes an excellent article monthly in the Brittain at War magazine telling the story of one or more VC winners each issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Baskeyfield
http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/epic-...ail/story.html
Lord Ashcroft writes an excellent article monthly in the Brittain at War magazine telling the story of one or more VC winners each issue.
Last edited by NutLoose; 6th Nov 2016 at 15:42.
Sorry Danny and Jackbut I cant agree with you. One assumes that they are now in the possession if his family, who are entitled to do with them as they wish. If they are purchased by a wealthy collector (and they are going to have to be wealthy) then I see no problem. The FAA Museum has no particular claim on them, moral or otherwise. If they want to make a display about Captain Brown's flying career (and I'm sure they will) they could include a replica of his medal group which could be obtained for a few hundred pounds. As Jimlad says, it's not the medals themselves which are important (they are just chunks of metal after all) but the story behind them, and that is available to all, no matter who owns the actual medals.
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Let's agree to disagree on this, chaps (I remain of same opinion).
MPN11: Grandad had India General Service Medal with bars for Mohmand and Kandahar.
...plus ça change plus c'est la même chose .......!
MPN11: Grandad had India General Service Medal with bars for Mohmand and Kandahar.
...plus ça change plus c'est la même chose .......!
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 6th Nov 2016 at 19:16. Reason: Tidy up/
To my mind the only person entitled to say what they want to happen to the medals is the recipient, and then its down to the family to do as they wish with them. - Jimlad1
Which surely is exactly where Bonhams come in so far as this case is concerned.
Jack
Which surely is exactly where Bonhams come in so far as this case is concerned.
Jack
Some photos etc that might be of interest, apologies for DM content..
Thirty years in the air, 487 types of aircraft, 20 near-death crashes: The remarkable bravery medals and log books of Britain's greatest ever pilot - Captain Eric ?Winkle? Brown - go on sale valued at £200,000 | Daily Mail Online
Thirty years in the air, 487 types of aircraft, 20 near-death crashes: The remarkable bravery medals and log books of Britain's greatest ever pilot - Captain Eric ?Winkle? Brown - go on sale valued at £200,000 | Daily Mail Online