Indyref 2 and UK/Scottish Defence
Thread Starter
Indyref 2 and UK/Scottish Defence
Well it looks like the old Scottish Independence chestnut is coming round again, Teresa May, although a remainer, seems set on a hard Brexit which is sure to insert a wild hair up Nicola's bum.
I happened to be talking to two chaps (both aviation enthusiasts, both Scots) who were all for independence, both insisted on seeing the entire issue as Scotland breaking from England. According to their logic Wales has no national separatist issue because its a Principality of England and Northern Ireland they sweepingly dismissed as another matter altogether. Scotland, they maintained was an equal partner in union with England. However, more interestingly, one noted that he doubted an independent Scotland could have its own Air Force as such. He believed they could rent places like Lossiemouth out to the RAF or NATO. Another, third chap, who struck me as a unionist, also believed that Scotland could not, if independent, have an air force of any worthy description. He maintained, though I doubt it, that the US were looking to secure Lossiemouth for themselves, had independence been secured the first time round. This I found hard to accept, the opportunity to do this surely arose following the SDSR of 2010 being revealed, it would probably have been a very welcome option by the then Government, who hadn't decided about warehousing returning troops from Germany at the time.
My own position, I'm a Scot living in England and while dubious over Brexit, am certain about Scottish Independence, I'm hard set against it!
But over to you...
FB
I happened to be talking to two chaps (both aviation enthusiasts, both Scots) who were all for independence, both insisted on seeing the entire issue as Scotland breaking from England. According to their logic Wales has no national separatist issue because its a Principality of England and Northern Ireland they sweepingly dismissed as another matter altogether. Scotland, they maintained was an equal partner in union with England. However, more interestingly, one noted that he doubted an independent Scotland could have its own Air Force as such. He believed they could rent places like Lossiemouth out to the RAF or NATO. Another, third chap, who struck me as a unionist, also believed that Scotland could not, if independent, have an air force of any worthy description. He maintained, though I doubt it, that the US were looking to secure Lossiemouth for themselves, had independence been secured the first time round. This I found hard to accept, the opportunity to do this surely arose following the SDSR of 2010 being revealed, it would probably have been a very welcome option by the then Government, who hadn't decided about warehousing returning troops from Germany at the time.
My own position, I'm a Scot living in England and while dubious over Brexit, am certain about Scottish Independence, I'm hard set against it!
But over to you...
FB
Equal partners? Not really given population sizes, GDP (albeit massively distorted in England by London) and the subsidy that England provides Scotland under the Barnett Formula. Yet more posturing from the SNP who behave, like many politicians on the Left, as if election results don't matter until they get the one they want. The SNP has had tax raising powers for years (able to change income tax by 3p up/down) but elects not to use them as it would detract from the "England is the root of all evil" narrative. I doubt very much that the average Scottish voter would be in favour of the massive hike in taxes to pay for an independent Scottish Air Force worthy of the name, especially with Oil prices so low and the English subsidy ended, on top of all the other traditional Left Wing bribes of free this and free that. Somebody has to pay for such largesse eventually - and I'm sure the EU would just love another shaky economy in the Eurozone..... Why would the rest of the UK lease bases off Scotland? Given that Faslane will get its marching orders I'd suggest that Lossiemouth would close (unless it became a US Naval facility) and the assets relocate south to areas in England requiring investment instead. Perhaps Leeming could see a return of FL activity and the possibility of taking over Mildenhall, reopening Honington for aviation and kicking the UAS world out of Wittering would free up plenty of real estate for the current and predicted Lossiemouth assets. I'd be very interested to see Sturgeons reaction if the next IndyRef was a very narrow victory - I bet she'd crack down instantly on any attempted re-vote. She constantly reminds us of her 50+ MPs, claiming that she talks for Scotland - yet, conveniently, forgets she got barely 50% of the votes in the GE and less than 50% in this year's Scottish election (and a loss of Overall Majority). Some might say she realises the SNP have hit the high water mark and if they don't push again now they'll never get another chance....
Thread Starter
I certainly take your point Evalu8tor, I didn't get much of word in edge ways when I was engaged in the conversation, but some of the things these chaps were saying with enthusiasm I'd frankly feel the need to get them to repeat it again. Towit; Scotland is the world's sixth largest economy, just behind Norway. But my chosen retort was to point out, as the more enthusiastic chap honestly didn't know, that Michael Fallon, Liam Fox, Michael Gove and Ian Duncan Smith are all Scotsmen. I then made the observation, in their ain language; 'See aw these English Tories!'
FB
FB
Given that Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38% - with all 32 council areas backing Remain - it is hardly surprising that the First Minister is being so hard-nosed with the UK Prime Minister.
I have considerable regard for a politician who stands up for her people's clear wishes in the way Nicola Sturgeon MSP is doing.
I have considerable regard for a politician who stands up for her people's clear wishes in the way Nicola Sturgeon MSP is doing.
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As I believe a referendum can only be held if Parliament sanction it, as happened the last time, she is as per usual is just blowing hot air.
It is simply a ploy to prevent the electorate at home waking up to the fact that the SNP neither have a strategy nor a plan to take the country forward when they realise the fact that dwindling revenues from oil have made Scotland more than ever dependant on the rest of the UK.
The biggest error they ever made was publishing independent results, it was a Country Vote, NOT a Scottish Vote, NOT a Welsh Vote, NOT a vote by individual cities and towns, but a Country wide Vote and as it is democracy in action they need to recognise that simple and plain truth.
You simply cannot say that the votes were cast to reflect individual Countries within the Union, because as a Country wide vote, you cannot rule out that individuals may have or may not have voted tactically to embarrass and bring down the Conservative party in power, irrespective of the result, or for any other reason..
Either way if the UK leaves the EU as we are going to, Scotland will be out too, regardless of if they get independence, Spain etc has made that very clear. So they would be a state with dwindling resources in a position far worse than if they remain and cut off from UK support and funding.. Personally I would give them the opportunity to vote, but on what?? Leave the British Union? because they are coming out of the EU anyway, as that has already been decided by the EU.
There is a difference, one wonders if the Scottish vote to leave UK PLC will be different this time as they realise that without the EU the only other realistic alliance they might have would be with the UK, and I cannot see the UK wanting to support Scotland as an independent Country.
..
It is simply a ploy to prevent the electorate at home waking up to the fact that the SNP neither have a strategy nor a plan to take the country forward when they realise the fact that dwindling revenues from oil have made Scotland more than ever dependant on the rest of the UK.
The biggest error they ever made was publishing independent results, it was a Country Vote, NOT a Scottish Vote, NOT a Welsh Vote, NOT a vote by individual cities and towns, but a Country wide Vote and as it is democracy in action they need to recognise that simple and plain truth.
You simply cannot say that the votes were cast to reflect individual Countries within the Union, because as a Country wide vote, you cannot rule out that individuals may have or may not have voted tactically to embarrass and bring down the Conservative party in power, irrespective of the result, or for any other reason..
Either way if the UK leaves the EU as we are going to, Scotland will be out too, regardless of if they get independence, Spain etc has made that very clear. So they would be a state with dwindling resources in a position far worse than if they remain and cut off from UK support and funding.. Personally I would give them the opportunity to vote, but on what?? Leave the British Union? because they are coming out of the EU anyway, as that has already been decided by the EU.
There is a difference, one wonders if the Scottish vote to leave UK PLC will be different this time as they realise that without the EU the only other realistic alliance they might have would be with the UK, and I cannot see the UK wanting to support Scotland as an independent Country.
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 24th Oct 2016 at 15:40.
It is probably true to say that the Sherrif of Scotchville can't hold a referendum which would inherently have the same legal significance to Westminster as the last one (although given that even that was only "advisory" that point is moot).
But she probably CAN choose to stage a referendum using all the same processes and rules, funded entirely from Scottish Parliament money. If THAT referendum came out with a substantial turn-out and (say) a 75% majority for seperation I suggest it would be very difficult for Westminster to ignore it.
PDR
Beags,
Perhaps, but the SNP lost a "once in a generation" IndyRef a few scant years ago and she shows no sign of respecting her people's clear wishes on that. The Scots voted to remain in a United Kingdom then; London voted to "remain" in the EU and apart from some half-wits no-one is suggesting it holds the rest of the UK to ransom. Sturgeon is a political creature to her fingernails; she know's that the economic case for Independence is weakening, as is support for the SNP so she needs to have one last go before it's too late and Scotland returns to a coalition. The "6th largest economy" is poppycock; Scotland ranked 14th in 2014 on one measure - GDP/capita - only due to subsidies and the inflated price of oil. The same survey ranked Scotland as 57th (between Iraq and Bangladesh) if the wealth of the country was measured as a whole, not divided per capita. Not so rosy using that metric in 2014 is it? I dare say thanks to the slump in oil, it's a damn sight lower now.
Perhaps, but the SNP lost a "once in a generation" IndyRef a few scant years ago and she shows no sign of respecting her people's clear wishes on that. The Scots voted to remain in a United Kingdom then; London voted to "remain" in the EU and apart from some half-wits no-one is suggesting it holds the rest of the UK to ransom. Sturgeon is a political creature to her fingernails; she know's that the economic case for Independence is weakening, as is support for the SNP so she needs to have one last go before it's too late and Scotland returns to a coalition. The "6th largest economy" is poppycock; Scotland ranked 14th in 2014 on one measure - GDP/capita - only due to subsidies and the inflated price of oil. The same survey ranked Scotland as 57th (between Iraq and Bangladesh) if the wealth of the country was measured as a whole, not divided per capita. Not so rosy using that metric in 2014 is it? I dare say thanks to the slump in oil, it's a damn sight lower now.
QUOTE:
London voted to "remain" in the EU
Bugger! Did I miss something?
London voted to "remain" in the EU
Bugger! Did I miss something?
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Dear BEagle and all.
There will be no indy2, she's desperate to avoid "the people " realising just what a desperate shower the snp are and what they have done to Scotland so far; the media, whilst not directly controlled by the snp/scot gov is under intense scrutiny unless some journo breaks cover and really fancies joining the homeless on the streets and in the food banks...
The best bit is the gullable actually see her as something clever rather than the figurehead of a manipulative and despotic movement.
Never had you down as a cyber Nat, but there you go.
There will be no indy2, she's desperate to avoid "the people " realising just what a desperate shower the snp are and what they have done to Scotland so far; the media, whilst not directly controlled by the snp/scot gov is under intense scrutiny unless some journo breaks cover and really fancies joining the homeless on the streets and in the food banks...
The best bit is the gullable actually see her as something clever rather than the figurehead of a manipulative and despotic movement.
Never had you down as a cyber Nat, but there you go.
If a second referendum was held and voted to remain in the Union, she would still want a third.
Of course you can keep holding referendums until they get the vote they want, but would they hold another one to rejoin after that? I very much doubt it.
Mind you, if the English were offered a vote to see if Scotland should remain and they voted them out, the SNP would probably reject it as it wouldn't have been voted by them...
Of course you can keep holding referendums until they get the vote they want, but would they hold another one to rejoin after that? I very much doubt it.
Mind you, if the English were offered a vote to see if Scotland should remain and they voted them out, the SNP would probably reject it as it wouldn't have been voted by them...
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Last edited by glad rag; 24th Oct 2016 at 19:29.
Whether Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU doesn't really bother me (not strictly true but I'm not about to get involved in that argument!). What does annoy me is how people like Sturgeon play such deceitful politics and twist things to suit their agenda.
Why has it now become accepted rhetoric that Scotland voted to remain in the EU? That was not the question they were asked. Scottish based British people wanted the UK to remain in the EU. In my book that is not the same thing.
Or maybe I is just fick?!
BV
Why has it now become accepted rhetoric that Scotland voted to remain in the EU? That was not the question they were asked. Scottish based British people wanted the UK to remain in the EU. In my book that is not the same thing.
Or maybe I is just fick?!
BV
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Bob I believe it is a number of things, but mostly the left wing bias of the BBC who, even before Brexit, were determined to undermine the government. Now of course, their gloves are well and truely off and ANY political troll gets airtime if it causes the government grief and bad pr.
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What I don't get is 2,000,000 Scots voted to remain part of the UK yet only 1,600,000 voted to remain part of the EU.
If they were so vehemently opposed to leaving then why did Scotland (and particular) the highly populous Glasgoe) have some of the lowest turnouts in the UK? As the UK voted as a country there's a good chance if as many turned out for EU referendum as they did the independence referendum then things could have changed.
It really is time for the SNP to put up and shut up. Brexit is idea for the SNP as its a wonderful distraction for them. Keep blaming the Tories/English/Westminster and ignore the problems at home. Keep mentioning indyref2 every few weeks or making pointless trips to Brussels but whatever. Anything but actually getting on and running the country as the most devolved parliament in the world.
If they were so vehemently opposed to leaving then why did Scotland (and particular) the highly populous Glasgoe) have some of the lowest turnouts in the UK? As the UK voted as a country there's a good chance if as many turned out for EU referendum as they did the independence referendum then things could have changed.
It really is time for the SNP to put up and shut up. Brexit is idea for the SNP as its a wonderful distraction for them. Keep blaming the Tories/English/Westminster and ignore the problems at home. Keep mentioning indyref2 every few weeks or making pointless trips to Brussels but whatever. Anything but actually getting on and running the country as the most devolved parliament in the world.
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I have considerable regard for a politician who stands up for her people's clear wishes in the way Nicola Sturgeon MSP is doing.
Polling would appear to indicate that (a) a majority of Scots don't actually want another indyref and (b) the breakdown of the vote on the EU doesn't necessarily reflect a 100% match with support for independence (as an example non-SNP voters voting to remain and SNP voters boting to leave the EU).
So far we've had three referenda in recent years: voting system, indyref, EUref.
On each occasion those instigating them have not got the result they were looking for.
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Have you noticed that people have become very undemocratic with the use of the word "democratic".
As far as I am aware democracy is something to do with the will of the people. If the will of the people changes, surely it is the job of political parties to react to that change...timescale would seem to have **** all to do with it.
The SNP's problem is not one of timescale; it is one of opinion. There is no evidence to suggest that the will of the people has changed in sufficient numbers since indyref1 - none whatsoever.
If, as a result of brexit, there was sufficient evidence that the will of the people had changed and that indyref2 would result in scexit, a referendum would be the sacred democratic response of ALL parties. At the moment, that scenario is purely hypothetical.
LOL, you guys. all this is just the warm up act. The real chaos and uncertainty kicks in after Article 50 is delivered. That's when life will get interesting. Incidentally, as Beags points out, NS is just doing the job she is paid and elected to do...sticking up for her people. I'm sure she has her own agenda too...doesn't every politician...indeed, don't you?
As far as I am aware democracy is something to do with the will of the people. If the will of the people changes, surely it is the job of political parties to react to that change...timescale would seem to have **** all to do with it.
The SNP's problem is not one of timescale; it is one of opinion. There is no evidence to suggest that the will of the people has changed in sufficient numbers since indyref1 - none whatsoever.
If, as a result of brexit, there was sufficient evidence that the will of the people had changed and that indyref2 would result in scexit, a referendum would be the sacred democratic response of ALL parties. At the moment, that scenario is purely hypothetical.
LOL, you guys. all this is just the warm up act. The real chaos and uncertainty kicks in after Article 50 is delivered. That's when life will get interesting. Incidentally, as Beags points out, NS is just doing the job she is paid and elected to do...sticking up for her people. I'm sure she has her own agenda too...doesn't every politician...indeed, don't you?
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"Doing the job she was paid and elected to do" ...Yes, Badly, if by that you mean running Scotland. The whole indyref pantomime provides a welcome distraction from her lamentable performance at her day job.
Polling would appear to indicate that (a) a majority of Scots don't actually want another indyref