RAF Pilot Retention
I'm told that all this is centralised these days by various desks and offices, which defeats the whole point.
You are right in another sense though, in that the levers to retain people aren't held by sqns, wings or stns. Yes, they might be able to get you off a det or enable you to have a bit more time at home in times of trouble, but ultimately it will be pay, pensions, postings and lifestyle that hold people in, and a lot of those aren't even controlled by VSOs.
the RAF is your Sqn/Unit/Wing etc,
Different things will keep different people in and you will never be able to retain everyone. Some will want more time in the cockpit, some will want a variety of postings and some interesting ops whereas others won't want to move or deploy away from family. Most will want more money but unless people are already reasonably happy or there is a very large chunk of it, money won't hold people in forever.
To answer your earlier question, no I have not told anyone that the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about them using those words, but I have told them using the same words as Leon. Everyone want's different things from life, and when the RAF is no longer what you want, it is time to leave.
For those who think that I'm out of touch with the RAF of today, sorry, but you're wrong...
Last year I was chatting with the boss of a squadron which operates quite modern multi-pilot aircraft. A thoroughly nice chap, he told me that many of his pilots were PVR'ing and there wasn't anything he could actively do to persuade them otherwise. "So I guess it won't be long before I'll be doing the same", he concluded.
Doing my PVR porridge, a fast jet DeskO bounced into the office I was using at Binnsworth. "Got an ATPL?", he asked. "Yes". "Lucky blighter, I wish I was in your shoes"....
In the end I only used my ATPL for FI/FE work on light aircraft - although there was a possibility I might have needed a Type Rating for the instructional and development work on the military aircraft programme on which I was working after I'd left the Service.
Some have written that 'airline' pay is the main attraction for many PVR'ing pilots. "The job is very boring, but they do at least hose you down with dosh", as one of my airline pilot FIs explained a year or so ago.
It isn't really likely that there could be a substantial pay rise for military aircrew - but is money the only reason people seem to be leaving in the numbers some are claiming?
Anyway, for those staying in, I hope you'll have the enjoyment I had - for most of my time.
Last year I was chatting with the boss of a squadron which operates quite modern multi-pilot aircraft. A thoroughly nice chap, he told me that many of his pilots were PVR'ing and there wasn't anything he could actively do to persuade them otherwise. "So I guess it won't be long before I'll be doing the same", he concluded.
Doing my PVR porridge, a fast jet DeskO bounced into the office I was using at Binnsworth. "Got an ATPL?", he asked. "Yes". "Lucky blighter, I wish I was in your shoes"....
In the end I only used my ATPL for FI/FE work on light aircraft - although there was a possibility I might have needed a Type Rating for the instructional and development work on the military aircraft programme on which I was working after I'd left the Service.
Some have written that 'airline' pay is the main attraction for many PVR'ing pilots. "The job is very boring, but they do at least hose you down with dosh", as one of my airline pilot FIs explained a year or so ago.
It isn't really likely that there could be a substantial pay rise for military aircrew - but is money the only reason people seem to be leaving in the numbers some are claiming?
Anyway, for those staying in, I hope you'll have the enjoyment I had - for most of my time.
Add to that significantly reduced time to command due to expansion makes the civil world extremely attractive to many !
Money is certainly not the only reason pilots are leaving, there are many other factors, including , not least, the opportunity to take control of your own lifestyle and determine your own future.
AP, as I said previously, you have the knowledge and experience of the modern Air Force and I don't, so I bow to you in that respect. On the other hand, I have experienced the Air Force that I described earlier. I'm sure that yours, with its specialist and centralised services, be they for compassionate, joint, personnel, etc, purposes, is the more efficient.
My comment would be that morale is less moved by efficiency, real or supposed, than by personal involvement. The efforts made on our behalf by various bosses often scored negative brownie points, if by that term you infer career enhancing reputation with the CoC. One of them took on the NAAFI when his Sqn first line servicing flight night shifts were denied tea and buns from the NAAFI wagon as it was deemed uneconomical providing them. He engaged a local trader (this was at Changi), agreed a menu and prices for bacon butties etc, charges for rent and power (via Stn Svcs Flt I think), so much for the Sqn Fund, and the rest for the trader. Luckily the Stn Cdr supported him to the hilt having been told that it was essential for Operational Efficiency that the refreshments be provided. A very senior man from NAAFI HQ London flew out in vain to close down this challenge to its Sole Trader rights. Long after I left, and after a change of a/c type, the arrangement lasted until the UK Military withdrawal from Singapore. Probably didn't harm the boss's career prospects much, but certainly boosted morale amongst his Ground Engineers.
On the issue of ground engineers, Centralised Servicing replaced Sqn First Line Servicing at Fairford. The old rapport between Air and Ground Crews seemed thus threatened. The two Sqn bosses agreed to adopt one each of the two Eng Wg Sqns, creating the same friendly competition in the Gnd Crews. Naked subversion of someone or other's Grand Projet no doubt, but again morale was maintained. People aren't units of production, they are human beings; irrational, emotional, subject to good and bad days, but if treated right will always respond positively. Given a good boss people got treated right. I must confess that is the one weakness in my cunning plan, and not all bosses were good. I was lucky, but the words babies and bathwater also come to mind.
Anyway, we are fated to disagree I fear. Thank you for your forbearance, AP. And I was certain that you would have never told anyone that which was said to Haraka. All the more reason for condemning the VSO who did, in my view.
My comment would be that morale is less moved by efficiency, real or supposed, than by personal involvement. The efforts made on our behalf by various bosses often scored negative brownie points, if by that term you infer career enhancing reputation with the CoC. One of them took on the NAAFI when his Sqn first line servicing flight night shifts were denied tea and buns from the NAAFI wagon as it was deemed uneconomical providing them. He engaged a local trader (this was at Changi), agreed a menu and prices for bacon butties etc, charges for rent and power (via Stn Svcs Flt I think), so much for the Sqn Fund, and the rest for the trader. Luckily the Stn Cdr supported him to the hilt having been told that it was essential for Operational Efficiency that the refreshments be provided. A very senior man from NAAFI HQ London flew out in vain to close down this challenge to its Sole Trader rights. Long after I left, and after a change of a/c type, the arrangement lasted until the UK Military withdrawal from Singapore. Probably didn't harm the boss's career prospects much, but certainly boosted morale amongst his Ground Engineers.
On the issue of ground engineers, Centralised Servicing replaced Sqn First Line Servicing at Fairford. The old rapport between Air and Ground Crews seemed thus threatened. The two Sqn bosses agreed to adopt one each of the two Eng Wg Sqns, creating the same friendly competition in the Gnd Crews. Naked subversion of someone or other's Grand Projet no doubt, but again morale was maintained. People aren't units of production, they are human beings; irrational, emotional, subject to good and bad days, but if treated right will always respond positively. Given a good boss people got treated right. I must confess that is the one weakness in my cunning plan, and not all bosses were good. I was lucky, but the words babies and bathwater also come to mind.
Anyway, we are fated to disagree I fear. Thank you for your forbearance, AP. And I was certain that you would have never told anyone that which was said to Haraka. All the more reason for condemning the VSO who did, in my view.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 30th Oct 2016 at 21:02.
B48N
Different Boss, I had been ground toured between on another Grand Projet called Operation Trenchard, that envisaged putting the entire Operational Data for mounting a large scale airlift onto Automatic Data Processing (ie a computer). We went to Blandford Forum to learn about programming and thence to Old Sarum for the project.
Mercifully the Treasury turned off the money tap or I'm sure we would have produced Mediator/Linesman again (worth we were told only its weight in scrap copper). Every time a Herc flew over I looked up wistfully. Eventually I was called into the boss's office who said, "If I were to say that there is a shortage of pilots at Lyneham and that if you are inter..". The rest was drowned in my whoop of joy and he merely added, "I rather thought that might be your reaction, so goodbye and good luck". So short toured and no regrets!
Different Boss, I had been ground toured between on another Grand Projet called Operation Trenchard, that envisaged putting the entire Operational Data for mounting a large scale airlift onto Automatic Data Processing (ie a computer). We went to Blandford Forum to learn about programming and thence to Old Sarum for the project.
Mercifully the Treasury turned off the money tap or I'm sure we would have produced Mediator/Linesman again (worth we were told only its weight in scrap copper). Every time a Herc flew over I looked up wistfully. Eventually I was called into the boss's office who said, "If I were to say that there is a shortage of pilots at Lyneham and that if you are inter..". The rest was drowned in my whoop of joy and he merely added, "I rather thought that might be your reaction, so goodbye and good luck". So short toured and no regrets!
In 1976, while I was a lowly SAC stationed at Brüggen, my mother was taken seriously ill. The doctor in the hospital asked if there was anything she needed, she said I want my son, he's in the airforce in Germany. The doctor phoned the CIO and explained the situation. The CIO called Innsworth, they worked out who I was and set the wheels in motion. I was on late shift and had been out and about, when I got back to my room to get changed for work there was a note on the door saying " Come to work, don't wear uniform", once I got to work my flight commander told what was going on, as it was too late to go to the bank he gave me £100 cash and said pay me back when you get back. A staff car took me back to the block where I packed a bag and I was then taken back to the airfield where a 60 sqn Pembroke was waiting, I was flown to RNAS Lee on Solent where an RN staff car took me to the hospital in Portsmouth where my mother was in intensive care.
So, within three hours of me reading the note I was by my mothers bedside.
So, within three hours of me reading the note I was by my mothers bedside.
Great story, but I don't see how 40 year old examples of successful compassionate cases effect current pilot retention. Having seen the modern compassionate system at work on Ops and in the UK and proudly been a part of missions where we literally couldn't have got people to their loved ones much quicker, I'd say it still works very well today.
Any chance we can get the thread back on topic?...
Any chance we can get the thread back on topic?...
AP
I agree with your plea to get back to the thread and having broken my own rule of not commenting on issues I know nothing about, have deleted my post.
Except to say that if any of my teenage grandchildren expressed an interest in applying to be an RAF pilot, I would fully support them as would my son.
Except to say that if any of my teenage grandchildren expressed an interest in applying to be an RAF pilot, I would fully support them as would my son.
Of interest on the last two occasions that I have attended a function at units where my son has been stationed I have sat next to a pilot who has rejoined the RAF having spent a period working for an airline. Both cited the same reasons for rejoining; lack of stimulation, lack of comradeship and poor working conditions. It seems to me that this is not a one way flow and it would be interesting to see some stats on the numbers of pilots who rejoin and how long after retiring.
57mm
I left the Herc' fleet in '73.
I gather from other threads that there may be a need for navs on the Poseidon - at 70 I think I'm a tad too old!
Canute
Made I larf!
I gather from other threads that there may be a need for navs on the Poseidon - at 70 I think I'm a tad too old!
Canute
Made I larf!
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I was 'facilitated' to talk to my (serving) wife on ASMA between Stanley and Waddington when my father was dying of cancer, and to discuss whether I should be short-toured down there and screw someone elses' life. I stayed, and made it to my father's bedside with a few days to spare (not that he was in a state to really notice, I suspect).
My thanks to both OC Ops for facilitating that. It meant a lot.
My thanks to both OC Ops for facilitating that. It meant a lot.
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Some of you will, and already have, disagreed with this, but actually, it all boils down to money in the end, and feeling valued by the organisation. If you are paid more money, you can put up with more nonsense, hence why we pay our Loan Service personnel a premium. When the nonsense increases seemingly without limit and the take home pay actually goes down, along with the pension (I'm thinking the CAAS rebanding exercise for those in SFA) then of course people are miffed. I'll give you some examples of common disgruntlements what i mean by it all coming down to money and value:
1. Too much trivia and not enough flying. VALUE. Why do I as a professional operator of multi-million pound equipment directly delivering air power have to be patronised to by some ill-educated twerp about something I am perfectly capable of doing through a god-given common sense. Example, the Defence Information Management Passport, the GPC users course, the UK matrix test for a F600. All set up for perfectly good reasons for people who know no better. The 3 instructors on most OCUs established for 8 or so don't have time or space for this cr@p so employ someone to make it go away-can't, no money. Result, personnel feel undervalued. However, pay them more salary and they would give less of a sh!t.
2. Said operator of multimillion pound air power delivery system can see a much better way of approaching a process. Can't because its all to diffiuclt to get aggreement between contractor, security idiots and procurement idiots. Result, wasted money on poor procurements, wasted time on unneccessary process = undervalued personnel. Pay them more salary, they would give less sh!t.
3. Cannot get wiley contractor to even commit to fix faults or admit they exist in your MQ, personnel is distracted by home situation and family are unhappy. Solved by money because if you were paid super-well you would just get a man in to fix it and screw the contractor.
4. Exhausted family, unpredictable routine, etc. Pay enough to get some help around the house, a babysitter every now again, zen restored. More money.
So, cynically, most of this can be, if not fixed, offset at least by more money. Since the RAF is so fond of contractors, why don't we all become self-employed contractors? The RAF would have to pay say £250,000 a year for the use of one JO pilot for a year, after 6 years initial RoS upon initial training. So no 3rd tourist or older would be retained at all unless they were promoted. Instead, they just bought in the services of a suitably qualified person. In return, no housing, no pension commitment, no schooling allowance, no uniform, no ancilliary non-employment related training or quals would be provided. An unending joker card was issued to be smashed in the face of any blunty waiving an DLP online learning course, or mandatory seminar workshop at you. And in return you flew. Lots. And other people untangled the contractor's wiley lies, and un-fu@ked their sh!t documents and their useless equipment. Other people argued with security over devices and processes already used by thousands of organizations more valuable than ours, and other people had to sit in a room being shouted at by the regiment. I would sign up for that tomorrow. I think the RAF gets pretty poor value out of it support services, and I think in most cases I could do better for myself on my own, with enough money. Medical? BUPA. SFA? More money, buy own house. MT? Own car, more money, not so bothered about using for work. JPA? Sweet FA more like. The odd thing is, I bet if you added it all up, my idea with the £250,000 salary would actually be cheaper than what they do now. You could even call it, Professional Aviator or FTRS or whatever you liked. You could even give it a different badging, etc. If this went along with people getting accredited training in the first place then they could make their own choices at the end of the RoS and there would be a 2-way street, rather than the simple one-way street of simply being told you are going to have waste more of your most productive years working for an organisation that doesn't value you just to qualify for less pension than they said they would pay you.
As the beardy knight once said, train people so they can leave at any point, treat them so they don't want to. I wish so very much the RAF would apply that. But it won't so people will continue to leave, and people with more egg on their hat will continue to believe it doesn't matter just as long as teenagers with 5 GCSEs are willing to turn up to Cranwell on the vague hope of one day sitting in a typhoon. For those of us who have been here a few years it feels like someone who doesn't know what they are doing is playing with the Chernobyl fuel rods here, and trying to find out, by turning up the BS and down the money, at what point the whole thing goes bang. I don't think we are far off finding out...
Just my idle musings.
1. Too much trivia and not enough flying. VALUE. Why do I as a professional operator of multi-million pound equipment directly delivering air power have to be patronised to by some ill-educated twerp about something I am perfectly capable of doing through a god-given common sense. Example, the Defence Information Management Passport, the GPC users course, the UK matrix test for a F600. All set up for perfectly good reasons for people who know no better. The 3 instructors on most OCUs established for 8 or so don't have time or space for this cr@p so employ someone to make it go away-can't, no money. Result, personnel feel undervalued. However, pay them more salary and they would give less of a sh!t.
2. Said operator of multimillion pound air power delivery system can see a much better way of approaching a process. Can't because its all to diffiuclt to get aggreement between contractor, security idiots and procurement idiots. Result, wasted money on poor procurements, wasted time on unneccessary process = undervalued personnel. Pay them more salary, they would give less sh!t.
3. Cannot get wiley contractor to even commit to fix faults or admit they exist in your MQ, personnel is distracted by home situation and family are unhappy. Solved by money because if you were paid super-well you would just get a man in to fix it and screw the contractor.
4. Exhausted family, unpredictable routine, etc. Pay enough to get some help around the house, a babysitter every now again, zen restored. More money.
So, cynically, most of this can be, if not fixed, offset at least by more money. Since the RAF is so fond of contractors, why don't we all become self-employed contractors? The RAF would have to pay say £250,000 a year for the use of one JO pilot for a year, after 6 years initial RoS upon initial training. So no 3rd tourist or older would be retained at all unless they were promoted. Instead, they just bought in the services of a suitably qualified person. In return, no housing, no pension commitment, no schooling allowance, no uniform, no ancilliary non-employment related training or quals would be provided. An unending joker card was issued to be smashed in the face of any blunty waiving an DLP online learning course, or mandatory seminar workshop at you. And in return you flew. Lots. And other people untangled the contractor's wiley lies, and un-fu@ked their sh!t documents and their useless equipment. Other people argued with security over devices and processes already used by thousands of organizations more valuable than ours, and other people had to sit in a room being shouted at by the regiment. I would sign up for that tomorrow. I think the RAF gets pretty poor value out of it support services, and I think in most cases I could do better for myself on my own, with enough money. Medical? BUPA. SFA? More money, buy own house. MT? Own car, more money, not so bothered about using for work. JPA? Sweet FA more like. The odd thing is, I bet if you added it all up, my idea with the £250,000 salary would actually be cheaper than what they do now. You could even call it, Professional Aviator or FTRS or whatever you liked. You could even give it a different badging, etc. If this went along with people getting accredited training in the first place then they could make their own choices at the end of the RoS and there would be a 2-way street, rather than the simple one-way street of simply being told you are going to have waste more of your most productive years working for an organisation that doesn't value you just to qualify for less pension than they said they would pay you.
As the beardy knight once said, train people so they can leave at any point, treat them so they don't want to. I wish so very much the RAF would apply that. But it won't so people will continue to leave, and people with more egg on their hat will continue to believe it doesn't matter just as long as teenagers with 5 GCSEs are willing to turn up to Cranwell on the vague hope of one day sitting in a typhoon. For those of us who have been here a few years it feels like someone who doesn't know what they are doing is playing with the Chernobyl fuel rods here, and trying to find out, by turning up the BS and down the money, at what point the whole thing goes bang. I don't think we are far off finding out...
Just my idle musings.
Paying more money is most definitely not the answer. Having jumped ship from the RAF over a decade ago, I can assure you that more money does not make you happier or more tolerant. More money doesn't make you feel more valued, doesn't make your job more satisfying. Job satisfaction these days comes from within yourself and doing the best you can despite the best efforts of the people around you. You can certainly earn more money in the airlines but you necessarily be any happier for it.
Fj2me,
Your idle musings are actually very similar to my idle musings/gripes.
Your Branson quote I think is spot on. And after all, he knows a thing or two about running companies and managing people. I'd rather listen to him than some twerp who got promoted not because he was good at his primary job, but because he was camped outside his bosses office, shamelessly butt snorkelling and organised the mess Xmas bash.
I'm finding that increasing amounts of triv are getting in the way of my primary job. Being patronised during d&i training, or having a regt cpl blow a gasket because I've had the nerve to call a rifle a gun, or something equally unimportant just p!sses me off.
It makes me think "do I get paid enough for this?" So I look elsewhere. There are plenty of jobs where I can go to work. Fly. Go home. I don't have to worry about being on some idiots naughty list because I haven't done yet another dle course (because I've been too busy doing my job!).
Would I have the same job satisfaction? Don't know.
The thing is, for me money does talk. I do understand that everyone's different though.
For me more money would mean I can buy my kids more awesome Christmas presents. That will make them happy. That makes me happy too. My wife can buy shoes willy nilly (she does anyway, but we might be able to afford it). That will make her happy. That makes me happy too. I can buy a bigger house. Go on nicer holidays (and without worrying about it being cancelled last minute because someone has got a twisted sock (again!) and can't deploy). All of this makes my family happy.
I might not enjoy my job as much, but it's not all about me. It's about my family. In my situation, money does talk.
If I end up flying drunks to the latest party beach as a capt in 10 years time on a 6 figure salary maybe I won't enjoy the job as much (I actually really enjoy RAF flying), but I'll still be flying. There are probably people reading this thread wondering what on earth we are moaning about. People who would love to fly but can't. I thank my lucky stars that I'm a pilot, and I would consider it a privilege to still be in a position to work for an airline in 10 years time.
I think every job has a "price" attached to it. I.e. What would you need to pay me to do this job? All compared with the skills I have and what job I think I can get. Whether it's airlines, RAF pilot, mc donalds, prostitute, portaloo cleaner.
Portaloo cleaner for example, the figure (for me) would be 6 figures. I doubt Anyone would pay me that much so that's a no go.
Mc Donald's don't pay enough either. So that's a no go.
Airlines are paying more than my minimum "price" so that is a goer.
The RAF are now starting to pay less than my minimum price to do that particular job.
That's just me though, I guess everyone's different.
Your idle musings are actually very similar to my idle musings/gripes.
Your Branson quote I think is spot on. And after all, he knows a thing or two about running companies and managing people. I'd rather listen to him than some twerp who got promoted not because he was good at his primary job, but because he was camped outside his bosses office, shamelessly butt snorkelling and organised the mess Xmas bash.
I'm finding that increasing amounts of triv are getting in the way of my primary job. Being patronised during d&i training, or having a regt cpl blow a gasket because I've had the nerve to call a rifle a gun, or something equally unimportant just p!sses me off.
It makes me think "do I get paid enough for this?" So I look elsewhere. There are plenty of jobs where I can go to work. Fly. Go home. I don't have to worry about being on some idiots naughty list because I haven't done yet another dle course (because I've been too busy doing my job!).
Would I have the same job satisfaction? Don't know.
The thing is, for me money does talk. I do understand that everyone's different though.
For me more money would mean I can buy my kids more awesome Christmas presents. That will make them happy. That makes me happy too. My wife can buy shoes willy nilly (she does anyway, but we might be able to afford it). That will make her happy. That makes me happy too. I can buy a bigger house. Go on nicer holidays (and without worrying about it being cancelled last minute because someone has got a twisted sock (again!) and can't deploy). All of this makes my family happy.
I might not enjoy my job as much, but it's not all about me. It's about my family. In my situation, money does talk.
If I end up flying drunks to the latest party beach as a capt in 10 years time on a 6 figure salary maybe I won't enjoy the job as much (I actually really enjoy RAF flying), but I'll still be flying. There are probably people reading this thread wondering what on earth we are moaning about. People who would love to fly but can't. I thank my lucky stars that I'm a pilot, and I would consider it a privilege to still be in a position to work for an airline in 10 years time.
I think every job has a "price" attached to it. I.e. What would you need to pay me to do this job? All compared with the skills I have and what job I think I can get. Whether it's airlines, RAF pilot, mc donalds, prostitute, portaloo cleaner.
Portaloo cleaner for example, the figure (for me) would be 6 figures. I doubt Anyone would pay me that much so that's a no go.
Mc Donald's don't pay enough either. So that's a no go.
Airlines are paying more than my minimum "price" so that is a goer.
The RAF are now starting to pay less than my minimum price to do that particular job.
That's just me though, I guess everyone's different.
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I think Megaton touches on a really important point here. I jumped ship a couple of years ago for 'the promised land' of more money, more responsibility and, much more importantly, more quality of life (home every night, weekends off etc) but it does not necessarily make up for lack of job satisfaction. Yes, I love having all of my weekends with my family, yes I love being home every night, yes I enjoy payday that little bit more, but it is not strapping yourself to a £million military aircraft and going flying on operations, making a difference etc (you do clearly 'pay' for it in other ways though). Perhaps that is why the re-join stats are quite reasonable at the moment for all 3 services. Just my 10p's worth.
CG,
Of course. As well as wearing aircrew boots, and Sqn t shirt, and forgetting my green card.
Of course. As well as wearing aircrew boots, and Sqn t shirt, and forgetting my green card.
Flying boots? Back in the good old days of SAR it was bedroom slippers or trainers that got to 'em! But then SAR Wing (pre SAR Force) wasn't really in the military - just like today! 