RAF Pilot Retention
Isn't making you head for the door the master plan?
Lets look at the changes so far:
Final Salary vs Career Average. Always going to be a loser on career average especially if you take into account 6 months at Cranwell on New Entrant Rate of Pay which is currently around £14,000. God forbid you should be re-coursed or worse still end up on medical holding flight for any length of time. 6 months of £14k is going to seriously dent the final average whichever way you look at it.
Seniority for degrees. When I joined (and if my maths is right, Evalu8tor must have joined at about the same time) you got credit for your degree back in the form of a jump in Fg Off seniority. You even got an extra year just for being aircrew. My cadetship + 4 years seniority for my degree + 1 year for being aircrew made me a Flt Lt (with corresponding jump in wages) before I knew what I was doing. All this is now gone.
Flying Pay. Time used to start ticking when you got your wings. Now you need to be post OCU. Memory is hazy but I'm pretty sure I was on initial rate all through Valley and must have been knocking on the door of Middle rate when I reached the OCU (those were some long holds!).
Initial commission. PCs were the norm (16/38) with a few SSCs scattered about. Now SSC seems to be the default and you have to be 'selected' to swap to a pension earning commission later on.
All of the above make it much easier (and cheaper) to attract you straight from school, get 12 years out of you then let you go.
The OP claims £16M training cost to the end of OCU. I think that's way over the mark, £4-5M seems closer to a believable number and even than that is arrived at by adding up the cost of everything and diving by the number of graduates.
A better question would be, given that the equipment and bases are already in place, how much extra would it cost to train 1 extra pilot? If this figure is significantly less than the cost to retain the experienced guy past 40 for a 'full career' then you can see why this direction of travel has been taken.
I'm not saying I agree with it but it seems clear to me that those on here pining for the RAF to do more to retain them are barking up the wrong tree. Either you will be happy in the RAF and stay anyway or you'll be looking for greater remuneration and leave at 12 year point under the new system. This, I think, is what manpower plans want.
Lets look at the changes so far:
Final Salary vs Career Average. Always going to be a loser on career average especially if you take into account 6 months at Cranwell on New Entrant Rate of Pay which is currently around £14,000. God forbid you should be re-coursed or worse still end up on medical holding flight for any length of time. 6 months of £14k is going to seriously dent the final average whichever way you look at it.
Seniority for degrees. When I joined (and if my maths is right, Evalu8tor must have joined at about the same time) you got credit for your degree back in the form of a jump in Fg Off seniority. You even got an extra year just for being aircrew. My cadetship + 4 years seniority for my degree + 1 year for being aircrew made me a Flt Lt (with corresponding jump in wages) before I knew what I was doing. All this is now gone.
Flying Pay. Time used to start ticking when you got your wings. Now you need to be post OCU. Memory is hazy but I'm pretty sure I was on initial rate all through Valley and must have been knocking on the door of Middle rate when I reached the OCU (those were some long holds!).
Initial commission. PCs were the norm (16/38) with a few SSCs scattered about. Now SSC seems to be the default and you have to be 'selected' to swap to a pension earning commission later on.
All of the above make it much easier (and cheaper) to attract you straight from school, get 12 years out of you then let you go.
The OP claims £16M training cost to the end of OCU. I think that's way over the mark, £4-5M seems closer to a believable number and even than that is arrived at by adding up the cost of everything and diving by the number of graduates.
A better question would be, given that the equipment and bases are already in place, how much extra would it cost to train 1 extra pilot? If this figure is significantly less than the cost to retain the experienced guy past 40 for a 'full career' then you can see why this direction of travel has been taken.
I'm not saying I agree with it but it seems clear to me that those on here pining for the RAF to do more to retain them are barking up the wrong tree. Either you will be happy in the RAF and stay anyway or you'll be looking for greater remuneration and leave at 12 year point under the new system. This, I think, is what manpower plans want.
The world has changed enormously since i joined the RAF in 1964. I even have been a civilian for 13 years; doesn't time fly. However, I left with two years to run because I saw the way everything was going. When I joined, flying was paramount and I had no idea how much I got paid. It was not an issue. I was paid sufficient to keep me in beer and to run a Triumph Spitfire. Everything else in my life was provided for; free food, batting, cheap booze, but above all, heaps of flying. My first tour was on a sunny island in the Med which housed 7 Squadrons. Fun we had in spades, pilots ran the Air Force and accountants was just a word in the dictionary. Now where is that jet for the weekend, multiple overseas postings and a support mechanism designed to do just that; support the flying task?
Stuff,
Sounds about right! I got Flt Lt and Initial Rate Flying Pay on BFTS just before FJ LIN thanks to a degree and a hold and then JEFTS (which I was offered to fill a slot and only took as it started the flying pay clock earlier....). I think you're correct in your assumption that the RAF now wishes to pick and choose those that stay for a full career and use SSCs plus FTRS to fill the gaps. One only hopes that they don't just select the 'chisellers' for PCs or things could get very bad very quickly when risk averse group think really takes hold......
Sounds about right! I got Flt Lt and Initial Rate Flying Pay on BFTS just before FJ LIN thanks to a degree and a hold and then JEFTS (which I was offered to fill a slot and only took as it started the flying pay clock earlier....). I think you're correct in your assumption that the RAF now wishes to pick and choose those that stay for a full career and use SSCs plus FTRS to fill the gaps. One only hopes that they don't just select the 'chisellers' for PCs or things could get very bad very quickly when risk averse group think really takes hold......
Back in the mid 80's, I remember that FJ pilots needed to be second tourists to be pretty useful in role. Sharp second or third tourists would normally provide the QWI raw material and become really useful in their subsequent tour after qualifying. So what? Well, the QWI's were often also promotion fodder, moved up the ladder fast, and always in short supply. Consequently, overall standards of performance in the air by a Squadron, relied heavily upon the older, non-thrusting but experienced dudes. I may be wrong but, if cost is going to cull a greater percentage at around 35 yo, I can only see a lower future level of experience and ability!
OAP
OAP
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OAP ... no argument with that perspective. 
I had related issues in ATC, albeit in the other direction, when trying to choose those to be trained to be Watch Supervisors. The old and bold NFI flt lt, just doing his time for pension, or the thrusting but relatively inexperienced fg off? The fg off usually won the day.
I had related issues in ATC, albeit in the other direction, when trying to choose those to be trained to be Watch Supervisors. The old and bold NFI flt lt, just doing his time for pension, or the thrusting but relatively inexperienced fg off? The fg off usually won the day.
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Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Before leaving around 13 years ago, my Master's thesis was on RAF FJ pilot retention. After a fair bit of research, a pattern emerged that most pilots were hacked-off by their early thirties and left as soon as possible after that point. (An obvious exception were the hard-core career guys who loved the service truly, madly, deeply.) This correlated broadly with when family commitments were ramping up: concerns about time away from small children both day-to-day as well as on the many routine deployments, and more concerns about money generally. At this age a more mature assessment of the likely benefits of the civil sector seemed to come into play. Compare this to the first-tourist who would probably take minimum wage and/or beer money for the pleasure of throwing one of HM's pointy jets around.
I think, therefore, most decisions to leave are taken when the declining ‘fun’ line crosses the rising ‘need for more money’ line on the graph. If the RAF/MoD/Treasury could delay when the money issue becomes critical, I suspect many individuals would stay a bit longer. Even one extra productive tour per pilot would result in a massive cost reduction through reduced numbers in the training system. Only a small element of that saving would be needed to pay for a more substantial retention package for those with the highest replacement cost.
Before leaving around 13 years ago, my Master's thesis was on RAF FJ pilot retention. After a fair bit of research, a pattern emerged that most pilots were hacked-off by their early thirties and left as soon as possible after that point. (An obvious exception were the hard-core career guys who loved the service truly, madly, deeply.) This correlated broadly with when family commitments were ramping up: concerns about time away from small children both day-to-day as well as on the many routine deployments, and more concerns about money generally. At this age a more mature assessment of the likely benefits of the civil sector seemed to come into play. Compare this to the first-tourist who would probably take minimum wage and/or beer money for the pleasure of throwing one of HM's pointy jets around.
I think, therefore, most decisions to leave are taken when the declining ‘fun’ line crosses the rising ‘need for more money’ line on the graph. If the RAF/MoD/Treasury could delay when the money issue becomes critical, I suspect many individuals would stay a bit longer. Even one extra productive tour per pilot would result in a massive cost reduction through reduced numbers in the training system. Only a small element of that saving would be needed to pay for a more substantial retention package for those with the highest replacement cost.
TBW
I think, with my experience and the benefit of hindsight, that retention is far more complicated than just a fun/pay balance for most. Prospects for continued engagement into full career and/or promotion were always important, coupled with options for a civvi change-over if you needed to. Whatever, the plan now seems to be: get them in for as short-as-poss to avoid paying much or building a pension and, it'll be fine, Honest!
OAP
I think, with my experience and the benefit of hindsight, that retention is far more complicated than just a fun/pay balance for most. Prospects for continued engagement into full career and/or promotion were always important, coupled with options for a civvi change-over if you needed to. Whatever, the plan now seems to be: get them in for as short-as-poss to avoid paying much or building a pension and, it'll be fine, Honest!
OAP
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Tom Bell-Weed Your 'decreasing fun line' resonates, looking back at my RAF life back in the late 70s/early 80s. I'd been lucky to stumble on what might be called a 'career ladder', but it was grindingly slow (partly due to demographic bulges). But as the fun faded away (partly due to increased maturity) the 'money' graph started to look brighter.
And so another BOF was born
And so another BOF was born
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Vets, Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Chaplains, Nurses, Nuclear Engineers and SF
It did p*ss off our Regimental Pay Staff Sgt that I earned more than him as a TA Corporal. I explained if he'd like to do Selection, para course plus a few other bits and bobs ( and an annual CFT) he too could be on my pay band. He declined.
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Then and Now
I must be a contemporary of Sharpend. Joined Jan 64 stayed to 38/16 than ran away to an airline, BMI, who were happy o take me because I had flown the Viscount in the RAF
As it happens I recently visited an RAF base with a civi group. What struck me most was that all those I met considered the service as a job, with much talk of the various Ts and Cs and the uncertainty they faced over pensions, pay scales, and postings. The task seemed nothing more than than part of the problem
I saw no pleasure in life, the service, messes or their relationship with each other, there was no sign of joint pleasure in the task or respect. Seniors were routinely and openly described with contempt.
I asked one small group what they would do if they saw a friend in deep personal trouble in need of management support, they replied keep quiet.
I am am deeply troubled that the service I loved for all those years and was so good to me has been reduced to just another job
As it happens I recently visited an RAF base with a civi group. What struck me most was that all those I met considered the service as a job, with much talk of the various Ts and Cs and the uncertainty they faced over pensions, pay scales, and postings. The task seemed nothing more than than part of the problem
I saw no pleasure in life, the service, messes or their relationship with each other, there was no sign of joint pleasure in the task or respect. Seniors were routinely and openly described with contempt.
I asked one small group what they would do if they saw a friend in deep personal trouble in need of management support, they replied keep quiet.
I am am deeply troubled that the service I loved for all those years and was so good to me has been reduced to just another job
Last edited by Tinribs; 26th Oct 2016 at 17:02. Reason: make sense
Tinribs.
I have two points to throw back at you.
Firstly one small group of people at one base can't necessarily be considered representative of the entire RAF.
Secondly, if you'd joined the RAF in 1920 and walked into your future crewroom in 1982 and asked the same questions do you think that, maybe, you would have struggled to identify with the youngsters if not in the same way you describe but certainly on many levels.
I know I'm always banging on about the same thing on every thread but my point is always the same. Times, and people, change.
It's not necessarily wrong. It's just different.
Retreating back behind my rose tinted spectacles now.
BV
I have two points to throw back at you.
Firstly one small group of people at one base can't necessarily be considered representative of the entire RAF.
Secondly, if you'd joined the RAF in 1920 and walked into your future crewroom in 1982 and asked the same questions do you think that, maybe, you would have struggled to identify with the youngsters if not in the same way you describe but certainly on many levels.
I know I'm always banging on about the same thing on every thread but my point is always the same. Times, and people, change.
It's not necessarily wrong. It's just different.
Retreating back behind my rose tinted spectacles now.
BV
Last edited by Bob Viking; 26th Oct 2016 at 18:40.
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I left the RAF in 1989 and the rot was setting in even back then. Messes seemed to be run more and more for the convenience of the staff rather than mess members.
So called H24 stations offered sweet FA to those working weekends or late and meal times got earlier so that staff could get home because stewards, cooks etc were increasingly civilians and had to be paid over-time for dining-in nights, and other official mess functions.
Batting services became virtually non-existent and most of the perks of bothering to get a commission went out the door for JO's and for SO's things were just as bad!
At Wattisham in c 1984 the staish, T*** P**** had about 15 feet cut off the end of his garden to reduce the area so that it was below the cut off area to qualify him to have a gardener or an allowance for one. How cynical a ploy is that!
Jumping ship was a fairly simple step with "Options for Change" being the final shove.
MB
So called H24 stations offered sweet FA to those working weekends or late and meal times got earlier so that staff could get home because stewards, cooks etc were increasingly civilians and had to be paid over-time for dining-in nights, and other official mess functions.
Batting services became virtually non-existent and most of the perks of bothering to get a commission went out the door for JO's and for SO's things were just as bad!
At Wattisham in c 1984 the staish, T*** P**** had about 15 feet cut off the end of his garden to reduce the area so that it was below the cut off area to qualify him to have a gardener or an allowance for one. How cynical a ploy is that!
Jumping ship was a fairly simple step with "Options for Change" being the final shove.
MB
I had a " crisis of conscience" about PVR whilst on a very challenging, fulfilling and lucrative secondment overseas, the organisation of which offered me further promotion. My choice was to return to the RAF or jump ship.
Over a couple of bottles of wine I took a visiting VSO into my confidence as to my dilemma.
His response :
"Look, the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life."
Which I did.
Over a couple of bottles of wine I took a visiting VSO into my confidence as to my dilemma.
His response :
"Look, the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life."
Which I did.
Haraka:-
Says a lot about that VSO's personal investment in the Royal Air Force, and in stark contrast to my ex-boss (a mere Gp Capt) who despite ensuring my own PVR went through, nonetheless dedicated his life to the RAF rather than to his own personal ambition. I don't blame you for taking exactly the same course that I did. I do however find the style of advice given you as very telling, and perhaps typical of the RAF High Command's culture in general.
a visiting VSO..."Look, the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life."