RAF Pilot Retention
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RAF Pilot Retention
Over the (relatively short) life of the RAF there have been a number of ‘critial points,’ at which whole structure is addressed and altered in order to address an issue. The current state of pilot manning is just that, a critical point. Ignoring the new aircraft types we have just taken on, the additional FJ Sqns planned, the ever present draw of the MFTS contract, Russian posturing, Brexit and an increasing need to ‘fly the Union Flag;’ I think the RAF is close to being below critical mass of key enablers. There comes a point where without quality flying instructors, formation leaders, Sqn supervisors and SQEP Officers manning critical staff positions the game quickly turns sour and exponential reductions in capability quickly follow.
Much has been written on this forum citing the various reasons for leaving, and each pilot walking out the door inevitably has a number of reasons to go. The fact is however that flying training is getting increasingly expensive, a Typhoon pilot costs just shy of around 16 Million GBP to train. An F35 pilot will undoubtedly be considerably more. A civilian company would never dream of investing this amount of cash in an employee, have them resign in droves and not address the reasons they are leaving!
The pay of a front line pilot falls woefully short of commercial equivalents. With flying training delays (not the fault of the employee) pilots often don’t attract flying pay until early-mid thirties. At the same time a guy joining a low cost airline would have easily amortized training costs, and is likely to be on track for a short haul command (lets say around 80k a year, fully pensionable?), we pay our pilots around 35k + a small amount of flying pay (I have deliberately steered away from the obvious Middle Eastern employment comparisons). Now let’s consider the length of working day of an ‘average’ FJ pilot; I think you’ll struggle to find a front line operator who doesn’t regularly bounce off the 13 hour aircrew fatigue limit. Then there’s the trivia; it is easier to fly an aircraft into Europe than it is to arrange off-station MT, pilots spending a night away at another base have to pay for the privilege of a dated mess room which would be undoubtedly substandard to any commercial operator, finally we (as the employer) think it totally acceptable to work our guys into the ground with substandard support just because we think they are ‘privileged to fly a fast jet.’ It is a privilege, but it’s bloody hard work and evidently the privilege quickly wears off!
The whole force career structure is broken. A civilian employer would never dream of paying the guy who runs the admin office the same as a guy with 16Million + pounds worth of training who has multiple employment opportunities outside. I greatly value the work done by ground branch Officers, but the fact is that they are not as expensive to train, critical to the operation of the Force, or (and this is the clincher) as employable elsewhere. I have no doubt that it is now time for a specialist pay scale (like medics, and lawyers…. Also very employable outside) for pilots, this could even be type specific – should a Tucano pilot earn the same as an F35 jock? The planned changes to aircrew pay fall horrendously short of addressing the issues and I think we will continue to lose trained pilots at an alarming rate; a rate only to be exasperated when the ’75 pension crowd have moved on!
Much has been written on this forum citing the various reasons for leaving, and each pilot walking out the door inevitably has a number of reasons to go. The fact is however that flying training is getting increasingly expensive, a Typhoon pilot costs just shy of around 16 Million GBP to train. An F35 pilot will undoubtedly be considerably more. A civilian company would never dream of investing this amount of cash in an employee, have them resign in droves and not address the reasons they are leaving!
The pay of a front line pilot falls woefully short of commercial equivalents. With flying training delays (not the fault of the employee) pilots often don’t attract flying pay until early-mid thirties. At the same time a guy joining a low cost airline would have easily amortized training costs, and is likely to be on track for a short haul command (lets say around 80k a year, fully pensionable?), we pay our pilots around 35k + a small amount of flying pay (I have deliberately steered away from the obvious Middle Eastern employment comparisons). Now let’s consider the length of working day of an ‘average’ FJ pilot; I think you’ll struggle to find a front line operator who doesn’t regularly bounce off the 13 hour aircrew fatigue limit. Then there’s the trivia; it is easier to fly an aircraft into Europe than it is to arrange off-station MT, pilots spending a night away at another base have to pay for the privilege of a dated mess room which would be undoubtedly substandard to any commercial operator, finally we (as the employer) think it totally acceptable to work our guys into the ground with substandard support just because we think they are ‘privileged to fly a fast jet.’ It is a privilege, but it’s bloody hard work and evidently the privilege quickly wears off!
The whole force career structure is broken. A civilian employer would never dream of paying the guy who runs the admin office the same as a guy with 16Million + pounds worth of training who has multiple employment opportunities outside. I greatly value the work done by ground branch Officers, but the fact is that they are not as expensive to train, critical to the operation of the Force, or (and this is the clincher) as employable elsewhere. I have no doubt that it is now time for a specialist pay scale (like medics, and lawyers…. Also very employable outside) for pilots, this could even be type specific – should a Tucano pilot earn the same as an F35 jock? The planned changes to aircrew pay fall horrendously short of addressing the issues and I think we will continue to lose trained pilots at an alarming rate; a rate only to be exasperated when the ’75 pension crowd have moved on!
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Since the other thread on the 'current PVR rate' has degenerated in to a slanging match and arguably isn't on the same subject (as retention covers people leaving at Option Points, Exit Points as well as under PVR terms) I'll stick my head above the parapet and give, what I feel, are the answers to your questions. Taking each of your paragraphs in turn:
Agreed, and if the RAF doesn't start to look at this we will descend deeper in what is already a bad situation. I understand 2019 is the biggest pinch point so we're not even there yet.
I'm not a FJ mate, but a ME PAS Flt Lt. I happen to quite like what I do, the aircraft I fly has many esoteric disciplines and having not been on it that long and as I'm within my PAS RoS, I'm still keen and interested.
That said, I'm 99% leaving when my PAS RoS ends. Why? Pay and Pension.
Pay is not the be all and end all of the equation, especially as said, I like flying military aircraft. I suspect up to a point most of us do. However, as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, the benefits of Service Life have been gradually eroded to almost nothing, such that once the novelty of flying wears off, the only comparison to outside becomes pay. Since we're not paid parity with outside, when there are no extra incentives to stay (and many incentives to leave such as time away, chaotic programming, living in crap accommodation) the decision is easy. In addition, the added uncertainly over future military pensions (is AFPS 15 the last change to our pensions we'll see?) and the rumours of taxing the lump sum, all mean it's easier to take the money and run rather than risk staying in and seeing further reductions.
I recently attended a meeting with some Civil Servants that asked the question on what would keep me in. I stated what I said above ie why are Pilots paid what Adminers are paid? I'm not being precious here, I'm genuinely not, but why do we pay our pilots based on rank and not what they're worth? We don't pay our Doctors and Dentists like that and they hold rank too. In doing so, we will only retain a pilot until the novelty wears off.
At the end of the day, I have to do what's right for me and my family. If the RAF wants to change the way and the amount it pays it's pilots for the better in order to offset the issues of military life, then great. If not, then I and many others will leave. It's a shame, but it's as simple as that.
Much has been written on this forum citing the various reasons for leaving, and each pilot walking out the door inevitably has a number of reasons to go. The fact is however that flying training is getting increasingly expensive, a Typhoon pilot costs just shy of around 16 Million GBP to train. An F35 pilot will undoubtedly be considerably more. A civilian company would never dream of investing this amount of cash in an employee, have them resign in droves and not address the reasons they are leaving!
The pay of a front line pilot falls woefully short of commercial equivalents. With flying training delays (not the fault of the employee) pilots often don’t attract flying pay until early-mid thirties. At the same time a guy joining a low cost airline would have easily amortized training costs, and is likely to be on track for a short haul command (lets say around 80k a year, fully pensionable?), we pay our pilots around 35k + a small amount of flying pay (I have deliberately steered away from the obvious Middle Eastern employment comparisons). Now let’s consider the length of working day of an ‘average’ FJ pilot; I think you’ll struggle to find a front line operator who doesn’t regularly bounce off the 13 hour aircrew fatigue limit. Then there’s the trivia; it is easier to fly an aircraft into Europe than it is to arrange off-station MT, pilots spending a night away at another base have to pay for the privilege of a dated mess room which would be undoubtedly substandard to any commercial operator, finally we (as the employer) think it totally acceptable to work our guys into the ground with substandard support just because we think they are ‘privileged to fly a fast jet.’ It is a privilege, but it’s bloody hard work and evidently the privilege quickly wears off!
That said, I'm 99% leaving when my PAS RoS ends. Why? Pay and Pension.
Pay is not the be all and end all of the equation, especially as said, I like flying military aircraft. I suspect up to a point most of us do. However, as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, the benefits of Service Life have been gradually eroded to almost nothing, such that once the novelty of flying wears off, the only comparison to outside becomes pay. Since we're not paid parity with outside, when there are no extra incentives to stay (and many incentives to leave such as time away, chaotic programming, living in crap accommodation) the decision is easy. In addition, the added uncertainly over future military pensions (is AFPS 15 the last change to our pensions we'll see?) and the rumours of taxing the lump sum, all mean it's easier to take the money and run rather than risk staying in and seeing further reductions.
The whole force career structure is broken. A civilian employer would never dream of paying the guy who runs the admin office the same as a guy with 16Million + pounds worth of training who has multiple employment opportunities outside. I greatly value the work done by ground branch Officers, but the fact is that they are not as expensive to train, critical to the operation of the Force, or (and this is the clincher) as employable elsewhere. I have no doubt that it is now time for a specialist pay scale (like medics, and lawyers…. Also very employable outside) for pilots, this could even be type specific – should a Tucano pilot earn the same as an F35 jock? The planned changes to aircrew pay fall horrendously short of addressing the issues and I think we will continue to lose trained pilots at an alarming rate; a rate only to be exasperated when the ’75 pension crowd have moved on!
At the end of the day, I have to do what's right for me and my family. If the RAF wants to change the way and the amount it pays it's pilots for the better in order to offset the issues of military life, then great. If not, then I and many others will leave. It's a shame, but it's as simple as that.
Spot on Skaterboi. A colleague on this side of the pond recently 'released' (as it seems many are doing at the moment). His reasons were pretty much identical; Air Canada, Westjet et al are ramping up recruiting and many who are beyond ROS are looking to go outside.
I'm with Skater and Huey on this one:
There are specialist pay spines for Vets, Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Chaplains, Nurses, Nuclear Engineers and SF.
Pilots however will get paid the same as PEdos and Adminers.
Now, I know there are some who will cry, "But you get Retention and Recruitment Pay" Yeah - but quite a few years after you've been recruited and you'll have to be retained quite a few too!
There will be those who cry, "If you don't like it then leave" - pilots are.
I'm not writing this to enter into some sort of 'us and them' p*ssing contest, rather its market forces. The RAF doesn't pay enough - see ya!
On the other hand, the RAF pays handsomely if you want to be an Admin Trainer, HR guru or hotel fitness suite manager.
There are specialist pay spines for Vets, Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Chaplains, Nurses, Nuclear Engineers and SF.
Pilots however will get paid the same as PEdos and Adminers.
Now, I know there are some who will cry, "But you get Retention and Recruitment Pay" Yeah - but quite a few years after you've been recruited and you'll have to be retained quite a few too!
There will be those who cry, "If you don't like it then leave" - pilots are.
I'm not writing this to enter into some sort of 'us and them' p*ssing contest, rather its market forces. The RAF doesn't pay enough - see ya!
On the other hand, the RAF pays handsomely if you want to be an Admin Trainer, HR guru or hotel fitness suite manager.
As has been alluded to, there is a lot of rumour wrt Pay and pensions, has anyone got anything a little more definitive? And, as with others, taxing my gratuity would be the final straw!
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Not surprised ATC features ... it was once the 2nd hardest promotion pyramid, and I doubt that's improved since my day! I know a lot of old colleagues slipped sideways into staff jobs at NATS in later years, but losing JOs is a bit of a new development. It's not an instant transition from Mil to Civ ATC, with totally different rules and practical aspects..
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Manning have none of the levers that can make the differences required. They have tacitly admitted that. Everything these days requires tri-Service committee buy in. The USAF have given a huge retention incentive out to keep their people from walking out of the door. For that they had to go to Congress.
For this to be fixed it needs support all the way to the very top of Government and Treasury.
Good luck with that - we will have to be on our backsides, unable to function, for anything to be done. Until we get to that point (and we are not there yet) it won't get beyond OF5/4/3 level measures.
For this to be fixed it needs support all the way to the very top of Government and Treasury.
Good luck with that - we will have to be on our backsides, unable to function, for anything to be done. Until we get to that point (and we are not there yet) it won't get beyond OF5/4/3 level measures.
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While I agree 100% with the main premise here that pilots ought to be looked after better, it has to be pointed out that some of the direct comparisons made with civilian salaries are wide of the mark. The figure of £80k was mentioned; few pilots earn that much for a good many years, and probably not at all in the turboprop world. Indeed if your steed has propellers you may earn less than the guy searching your bag to start with!
Interesting post from Concernedpilot, however, pay is not hidden or secret and the pension is not confidential. You knew what it was when you joined and barring the recent pay scale change and AFPS15, neither of which turned anyone from a Lord to a pauper, is what you knew you were signing up for.
If money is what drives you above all else then why did you sign up?
If money is what drives you above all else then why did you sign up?
Stuff, fine if you are dead set on an RAF career. But when an RAF ME pilot (gratis ALTP perhaps, courtesy of a Voyager conversion) can walk into a RHS 777/787/A380/744 on near £70G it's Retention problem.
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Is the issue retention as opposed to fairness? Both points have been well made; its worth pointing out that the civilian pilots with which comparison is being made have had to pay the full cost of their training. Repaying that makes quite a dent in a junior FO salary. If the focus is retention, what's wrong or unfair with an explicit training bond for the cost of that training set against an agreed number of years service?
Stuff,
Yes I knew what I would get paid when I joined,what my pension would be and how long I would need to serve to get it, and also what allowances I would get. I also had an idea of what the job market was like outside the RAF.
All of the above have changed.
New pay scales. AFPS 15. I now have to serve 20 years to get what I was told on joining I would get after 18. (Balpa would be striking if this was an airline!) allowances cut. Pay freeze followed by 1% pay "rise". To top it off, airlines are
Recruiting heavily, more so than when I joined, so when I'm in a position to leave, if nothing changes drastically to keep me in, what does the RAF think I'm going to do?!
The RAF changed the goalposts that were in place when I joined.
It's not rocket science.
Yes I knew what I would get paid when I joined,what my pension would be and how long I would need to serve to get it, and also what allowances I would get. I also had an idea of what the job market was like outside the RAF.
All of the above have changed.
New pay scales. AFPS 15. I now have to serve 20 years to get what I was told on joining I would get after 18. (Balpa would be striking if this was an airline!) allowances cut. Pay freeze followed by 1% pay "rise". To top it off, airlines are
Recruiting heavily, more so than when I joined, so when I'm in a position to leave, if nothing changes drastically to keep me in, what does the RAF think I'm going to do?!
The RAF changed the goalposts that were in place when I joined.
It's not rocket science.
MPN11:-
I would say that much the same applies for pilots. However, I tread warily into this debate as some of the flak flying around on the PVR thread was against those who, like me, left the RAF many years ago. Some things don't change though. I remember the culture shock of entering civvie street. You were on your own, sink or swim. Yet by contrast some ex-military pilots seemed to find it difficult to mould themselves into the concept of crew co-operation and information exchange that civil airlines demand.
I was called to MOD for interview having applied for a PVR. I had a dread that I would emerge from it on some punishment ground tour "pour encourager les autres". It turned out to be my ex boss, now a P2 Groupie dealing with Wg Cdrs and above. He wanted to know if I (a mere JO) was under some cloud or other. "No Sir, but I have come to realise that whereas your first love is the Air Force, mine is flying. I have come to the point where they are now incompatible". To cut this rambling story short, he said he'd see that my PVR went through. I only tell it because he was an example of why it was so hard to tear myself away from the RAF. He and his ilk do not, cannot, exist in civilian life.
If all this might seem as a cautionary tale against taking the plunge, it is not. It is merely to make sure you know what it is you are plunging into. I went for short haul flying in the independent sector (bucket and spade brigade mainly). It wasn't so well paid as the long haul state owned sector (as it was then) but much more fun. I don't regret PVR'ing, and I'm glad of my choice of civilian employer.
Money is important, but job satisfaction is more so in my view, so get as much up to date info about the outside world as possible. Seniority is everything, so you don't want to waste it flitting from job to job where you are the proverbial square peg.
Just my thoughts. I'll shuffle off now in my bedroom slippers back to the fireside...
It's not an instant transition from Mil to Civ ATC, with totally different rules and practical aspects
I was called to MOD for interview having applied for a PVR. I had a dread that I would emerge from it on some punishment ground tour "pour encourager les autres". It turned out to be my ex boss, now a P2 Groupie dealing with Wg Cdrs and above. He wanted to know if I (a mere JO) was under some cloud or other. "No Sir, but I have come to realise that whereas your first love is the Air Force, mine is flying. I have come to the point where they are now incompatible". To cut this rambling story short, he said he'd see that my PVR went through. I only tell it because he was an example of why it was so hard to tear myself away from the RAF. He and his ilk do not, cannot, exist in civilian life.
If all this might seem as a cautionary tale against taking the plunge, it is not. It is merely to make sure you know what it is you are plunging into. I went for short haul flying in the independent sector (bucket and spade brigade mainly). It wasn't so well paid as the long haul state owned sector (as it was then) but much more fun. I don't regret PVR'ing, and I'm glad of my choice of civilian employer.
Money is important, but job satisfaction is more so in my view, so get as much up to date info about the outside world as possible. Seniority is everything, so you don't want to waste it flitting from job to job where you are the proverbial square peg.
Just my thoughts. I'll shuffle off now in my bedroom slippers back to the fireside...
I left 18 months ago, with just one month's worth of "career average" on top of my APS75 pension, and, glad to say, commuted tax free gratuity. I still pine for the things I miss; operational flying, the crewroom banter and the sense of belonging. But. The RAF, IMHO, has become a very two tier employer. There are those that rise seamlessly through the ranks, where mistakes are swept under the carpet and forgiven. They cannot rationalise why anyone should leave, and cite their own rise as evidence that the system is faultless. These individuals cannot understand the other RAF where trivia, micro-management and risk aversion are increasingly the norm. I think the point is that, yes, you understand the Ts and Cs when you join and I was grateful to be given the choice over APS75/APS05. Since then the "choice" seems to have disappeared. No choice over the endless erosion of perks, the mindless trivia over travel claims and, most importantly, absolutely no choice in an imposed fundamental change of conditions with the new pensions. Those at the top already have banked substantial pension provision and couldn't give a toss, those fresh faced joiners will know no different (and it will be very interesting to see how many of this cohort serve till 40 and IPP) - yet again it is the "squeezed middle" that suffers. Their only choice is to head for the door. Unfortunately for the RAF this is where the leaders of tomorrow are formed and where the SQEP to assure everything from Operational output to Airworthiness resides. Hack them off and watch the best of them leave at your future peril........
Agreed. Spot on.