Chuck Yeager dislikes the British
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One has to remember that cultural clashes are common, and that many people hold a, "one size fits all", opinion of other cultures that are substantially different to their own - which of course, is not true.
There's arrogance in every culture - but the Saxons seem to have had more than their fair share of it. There are many people with Saxon ancestry in America - but there are also many British people who carry Saxon ancestry, and practice a good deal of arrogance.
I recently crossed swords with a couple of "good ol' boys" on another forum - who were bragging about how, in WW1, (Gen.) John Joseph ("Black Jack") Pershing told them Brits where to get off, when he withdrew all his troops from under British control at the start of the real action for the American Doughboys in July 1918.
These "good ol' boys" were relishing how Jack Pershing told the Brits the Americans were going to fight WW1, on their terms - and they weren't going to be told what to do militarily, by any of those stinking, tea-sipping, Brits!
I had to point out to them, that the true story is actually a whole lot different. The Americans rocked up to WW1 simply without any real fighting experience.
In Army terms, they were "green reos", with no knowledge of infantry tactics, no knowledge of the cunning tactics used by the Germans - but full of gung-ho bravado.
The British were rightly concerned about the lack of tactical skills possessed by the Americans, and accordingly decided to "embed" (to use that very-recent, cute word) 10 companies of the Americans, with the Australian Diggers, to give them the very necessary grounding in basic infantry tactics, that the Americans needed.
Pershing was outraged about this, as he claimed the original agreement was the American Doughboys were to be kept in reserve as emergency forces to contain the Germans in case of a German breakout, or overrun of the Allied forces. Accordingly, he threatened to withdraw all his troops.
There were some more strained negotiations between Pershing and the British Generals, and Pershing finally realised, that the British plan probably did have merit - so he relented and allowed 4 American companies to be embedded with the Australian Diggers at the Battle of Hamel, to bring them up to speed.
Now, there wasn't the undercurrent of ill-feeling between the Australians and the Americans - just a degree of curiosity by the Diggers, at the difference in the way the Americans operated.
The Diggers were surprised at the lack of infantry tactics knowledge and training preparedness of the Americans - but they also quickly realised the American Doughboys didn't lack courage - in fact they were too "gung-ho", and the Diggers often had to pull the Doughboys back from getting themselves killed, by being too enthusiastic, or falling into cunning German traps.
The Diggers were quite happy to train up the Doughboys in effective infantry tactics - and the Doughboys were quick learners.
In fact, the infantry tactics taught by the Diggers to the Doughboys in 1918, have remained the world standard for effective modern infantry tactics, ever since.
The Battle of Hamel, organised and overseen by Gen. Sir John Monash, remains a classic of perfect co-ordination of men and equipment - of co-ordination of infantry, artillery and air forces, that set the basic principles of modern warfare in stone.
Even the timing of the action at Hamel was set to the minute. Monash planned the battle to succeed in 90 minutes, it took 94 minutes to carry it out, to its stunningly successful conclusion.
The AWM has a lot of information and photos of the interaction between the Diggers and the Doughboys during 1918. The relationships between the Diggers and Doughboys was more cordial and respectful of each other, than the relationship between the Doughboys and the Tommies.
It appears obvious there was still an undercurrent of lingering bitterness towards the British by a number of the Doughboys - and no doubt, some of that was due to a Tea Party event, that was still fresh in the minds of many Americans - and no doubt due to a large number of Americans having very recent Germanic ancestry.
A striking feature of the understanding of relationships by the Americans in WW1, was their failure to understand the cultural ties between the Aussies and the British. It appears many Americans thought the Aussies regarded the British as a former enemy, too.
They obviously failed to grasp the fact that many of the Diggers were of British birth, and Britain was still regarded as the Mother Country - even though the Diggers considered themselves substantially different, and believe they possessed more initiative than British Tommies - and of course, the Diggers didn't have the total deference to rank and class, that the British soldiers had.
To conclude, the "good ol' boys" never replied to my history correction - it probably made them choke on their grits and gravy, to find that they didn't invent modern infantry tactics, and go on to teach them to the rest of the world!
I won't even start on how the Americans took French tanks home at the end of WW1, and copied them!!
https://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j35/blair/
There's arrogance in every culture - but the Saxons seem to have had more than their fair share of it. There are many people with Saxon ancestry in America - but there are also many British people who carry Saxon ancestry, and practice a good deal of arrogance.
I recently crossed swords with a couple of "good ol' boys" on another forum - who were bragging about how, in WW1, (Gen.) John Joseph ("Black Jack") Pershing told them Brits where to get off, when he withdrew all his troops from under British control at the start of the real action for the American Doughboys in July 1918.
These "good ol' boys" were relishing how Jack Pershing told the Brits the Americans were going to fight WW1, on their terms - and they weren't going to be told what to do militarily, by any of those stinking, tea-sipping, Brits!
I had to point out to them, that the true story is actually a whole lot different. The Americans rocked up to WW1 simply without any real fighting experience.
In Army terms, they were "green reos", with no knowledge of infantry tactics, no knowledge of the cunning tactics used by the Germans - but full of gung-ho bravado.
The British were rightly concerned about the lack of tactical skills possessed by the Americans, and accordingly decided to "embed" (to use that very-recent, cute word) 10 companies of the Americans, with the Australian Diggers, to give them the very necessary grounding in basic infantry tactics, that the Americans needed.
Pershing was outraged about this, as he claimed the original agreement was the American Doughboys were to be kept in reserve as emergency forces to contain the Germans in case of a German breakout, or overrun of the Allied forces. Accordingly, he threatened to withdraw all his troops.
There were some more strained negotiations between Pershing and the British Generals, and Pershing finally realised, that the British plan probably did have merit - so he relented and allowed 4 American companies to be embedded with the Australian Diggers at the Battle of Hamel, to bring them up to speed.
Now, there wasn't the undercurrent of ill-feeling between the Australians and the Americans - just a degree of curiosity by the Diggers, at the difference in the way the Americans operated.
The Diggers were surprised at the lack of infantry tactics knowledge and training preparedness of the Americans - but they also quickly realised the American Doughboys didn't lack courage - in fact they were too "gung-ho", and the Diggers often had to pull the Doughboys back from getting themselves killed, by being too enthusiastic, or falling into cunning German traps.
The Diggers were quite happy to train up the Doughboys in effective infantry tactics - and the Doughboys were quick learners.
In fact, the infantry tactics taught by the Diggers to the Doughboys in 1918, have remained the world standard for effective modern infantry tactics, ever since.
The Battle of Hamel, organised and overseen by Gen. Sir John Monash, remains a classic of perfect co-ordination of men and equipment - of co-ordination of infantry, artillery and air forces, that set the basic principles of modern warfare in stone.
Even the timing of the action at Hamel was set to the minute. Monash planned the battle to succeed in 90 minutes, it took 94 minutes to carry it out, to its stunningly successful conclusion.
The AWM has a lot of information and photos of the interaction between the Diggers and the Doughboys during 1918. The relationships between the Diggers and Doughboys was more cordial and respectful of each other, than the relationship between the Doughboys and the Tommies.
It appears obvious there was still an undercurrent of lingering bitterness towards the British by a number of the Doughboys - and no doubt, some of that was due to a Tea Party event, that was still fresh in the minds of many Americans - and no doubt due to a large number of Americans having very recent Germanic ancestry.
A striking feature of the understanding of relationships by the Americans in WW1, was their failure to understand the cultural ties between the Aussies and the British. It appears many Americans thought the Aussies regarded the British as a former enemy, too.
They obviously failed to grasp the fact that many of the Diggers were of British birth, and Britain was still regarded as the Mother Country - even though the Diggers considered themselves substantially different, and believe they possessed more initiative than British Tommies - and of course, the Diggers didn't have the total deference to rank and class, that the British soldiers had.
To conclude, the "good ol' boys" never replied to my history correction - it probably made them choke on their grits and gravy, to find that they didn't invent modern infantry tactics, and go on to teach them to the rest of the world!
I won't even start on how the Americans took French tanks home at the end of WW1, and copied them!!
https://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j35/blair/
My first day in 1976 in London...
Head to train station enroute to RAF Museum. descend escalators. Cannot fathom the network. See a long haired chap masquerading as a railway worker...
"Q. sir how do we get to Hendon from here? A. __Take the train!'' and he scurried off....
Head to train station enroute to RAF Museum. descend escalators. Cannot fathom the network. See a long haired chap masquerading as a railway worker...
"Q. sir how do we get to Hendon from here? A. __Take the train!'' and he scurried off....
Gentleman Aviator
Surely if the B of B had been a draw, the Brits would have lost on penalties (sorry Cousins, that's a soccer joke.......)
"Q. sir how do we get to Hendon from here? A. __Take the train!'' and he scurried off....
As to Yeager and the thread drift that's occured, a couple of things... First, accomplished as he is, he's an old git, and entitled to act like one in my view. Do accomplished people never talk shoite? Course they do (keep reading!). Do fighter pilots know everything- of course they think they do! The things he has over me..
Fighter pilot
War ace
Test pilot
Record breaker
Wife half his age
... don't mean I have to agree with his every utterance. Putin's view of Brits is probably more important to us.
CG
To be correct....Soccer is a joke!
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Getting back to the OP, we British have been disliked for hundreds of years and we don't give a ****!
Bob C
Bob C
No, I think that´s the English
Tin hat..................goooooooooooo.
At least this pissing match has been better than the usual Jet Blast fare ...
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Agreed, Lonewolf.
I do, however, feel that someone will shortly be along to claim that either the Irish or the Austrians should bear responsibility for any discord.
(Incoming!!)
I do, however, feel that someone will shortly be along to claim that either the Irish or the Austrians should bear responsibility for any discord.
(Incoming!!)
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From BBC America:
"Several months ago, I was intrigued to read the following comment in The Economist, (December 20, 2014): “To be snooty about Americans, while slavishly admiring them; this is another crucial characteristic of being British.”
While technically a quote about Brits, I do agree that we can be terribly snooty about Americans and their culture. Many of us arrive here with the belief that our English is the real English; we invented it, for Pete’s sake! Brits revel in endless discussion threads about the American use of “I could care less” instead of “I couldn’t care less,” while conveniently ignoring the fact that many Americans are equally appalled by this. And as this BBC article shows, we Brits often attribute “new” (and unwelcome) words to the American influence on our culture when, in fact, the word at fault originated in the U.K.
“Slavishly admiring them”? Hmmmm.. With Brits in the mother country, I usually sense more of a grudging appreciation of some aspects of American life—the cheap jeans, the summer weather or the fantastic natural sights, and there are always people who see the U.S. through Florida-vacation tinted spectacles. (There’s also a general pervasion of American pop culture in Britain.)
American Idol and X Factor creator Simon Cowell’s reflection rings rather truer for me: “I think America is a hard nut to crack. But once you get a toehold, it’s a great place for an entrepreneur because people are so enthusiastic, and you have the most enthusiastic audiences in the world.”
Obviously, most of us don’t have TV audience numbers to worry about, but we usually agree that the U.S. is much more of a “can do” place than our homeland, with its “Yes, but…” attitude, putting the dampers on anything that might get us ahead of ourselves, so to speak. People like Simon Cowell, might have been criticized for being insulting on American Idol, but his rags- to-riches success story never led to accusations of being “jumped up,” as it often does in the U.K. Ironically, much of Cowell’s vast success and wealth was achieved in the U.K. before he ever set foot across the Pond.
Ricky Gervais agreed with Cowell in this 2011 interview: “It’s often dangerous to generalize, but under threat, I would say that Americans are more ‘down the line.’ They don’t hide their hopes and fears. They applaud ambition and openly reward success. Brits are more comfortable with life’s losers. We embrace the underdog until it’s no longer the underdog. We like to bring authority down a peg or two. Just for the hell of it … Failure and disappointment lurk around every corner. This is due to our upbringing. Americans are brought up to believe they can be the next president of the United States. Brits are told, ‘It won’t happen for you.'”
Gervais’ point, that Brits are more comfortable with life’s losers, is also seen in comedy, according to Stephen Fry. In this 2012 interview, Fry draws a distinction between American and British comic heroes, believing that the American comic heroes are smart talkers who “can wisecrack their way out of anything,” while typical British comedians “try to be decent and honest” but are all essentially an “utter failure … on whom life craps from a terrible height,” such as Basil Fawlty, Del Boy from Only Fools and Horses or David Brent from The Office. One could argue however, that some American comedies such as Curb Your Enthusiasm, more closely resemble the British version, since Larry David‘s character could hardly be described as a winner.
Gervais has also talked at length about the differences between American and British humor, as many of us do. According to Gervais, in the 2011 interview, “There’s a received wisdom in the U.K. that Americans don’t get irony. This is of course not true. But what is true is that they don’t use it all the time. It shows up in the smarter comedies but Americans don’t use it as much socially as Brits.” And indeed, many Brits in the U.S. drop irony and sarcasm on arriving, finding that Americans take the comments seriously, which of course, ends up making us look mean-spirited." LINK
"Several months ago, I was intrigued to read the following comment in The Economist, (December 20, 2014): “To be snooty about Americans, while slavishly admiring them; this is another crucial characteristic of being British.”
While technically a quote about Brits, I do agree that we can be terribly snooty about Americans and their culture. Many of us arrive here with the belief that our English is the real English; we invented it, for Pete’s sake! Brits revel in endless discussion threads about the American use of “I could care less” instead of “I couldn’t care less,” while conveniently ignoring the fact that many Americans are equally appalled by this. And as this BBC article shows, we Brits often attribute “new” (and unwelcome) words to the American influence on our culture when, in fact, the word at fault originated in the U.K.
“Slavishly admiring them”? Hmmmm.. With Brits in the mother country, I usually sense more of a grudging appreciation of some aspects of American life—the cheap jeans, the summer weather or the fantastic natural sights, and there are always people who see the U.S. through Florida-vacation tinted spectacles. (There’s also a general pervasion of American pop culture in Britain.)
American Idol and X Factor creator Simon Cowell’s reflection rings rather truer for me: “I think America is a hard nut to crack. But once you get a toehold, it’s a great place for an entrepreneur because people are so enthusiastic, and you have the most enthusiastic audiences in the world.”
Obviously, most of us don’t have TV audience numbers to worry about, but we usually agree that the U.S. is much more of a “can do” place than our homeland, with its “Yes, but…” attitude, putting the dampers on anything that might get us ahead of ourselves, so to speak. People like Simon Cowell, might have been criticized for being insulting on American Idol, but his rags- to-riches success story never led to accusations of being “jumped up,” as it often does in the U.K. Ironically, much of Cowell’s vast success and wealth was achieved in the U.K. before he ever set foot across the Pond.
Ricky Gervais agreed with Cowell in this 2011 interview: “It’s often dangerous to generalize, but under threat, I would say that Americans are more ‘down the line.’ They don’t hide their hopes and fears. They applaud ambition and openly reward success. Brits are more comfortable with life’s losers. We embrace the underdog until it’s no longer the underdog. We like to bring authority down a peg or two. Just for the hell of it … Failure and disappointment lurk around every corner. This is due to our upbringing. Americans are brought up to believe they can be the next president of the United States. Brits are told, ‘It won’t happen for you.'”
Gervais’ point, that Brits are more comfortable with life’s losers, is also seen in comedy, according to Stephen Fry. In this 2012 interview, Fry draws a distinction between American and British comic heroes, believing that the American comic heroes are smart talkers who “can wisecrack their way out of anything,” while typical British comedians “try to be decent and honest” but are all essentially an “utter failure … on whom life craps from a terrible height,” such as Basil Fawlty, Del Boy from Only Fools and Horses or David Brent from The Office. One could argue however, that some American comedies such as Curb Your Enthusiasm, more closely resemble the British version, since Larry David‘s character could hardly be described as a winner.
Gervais has also talked at length about the differences between American and British humor, as many of us do. According to Gervais, in the 2011 interview, “There’s a received wisdom in the U.K. that Americans don’t get irony. This is of course not true. But what is true is that they don’t use it all the time. It shows up in the smarter comedies but Americans don’t use it as much socially as Brits.” And indeed, many Brits in the U.S. drop irony and sarcasm on arriving, finding that Americans take the comments seriously, which of course, ends up making us look mean-spirited." LINK
Most Americans could care less what Yeager thinks about anything!
Have a video of CY and Bob Hoover on stage together at a Society of Experimental Test Pilots convention story telling, and CY is quite entertaining. Of course, CY being in the presence of his peers was unable to pull any of his usual ego massaging elements. Remember CY (in his book?) berating a pilot, who he taken out in a T-33 over the Edwards lake for area famil, for landing on the lake and getting the aircraft bogged. Turned out CY had told the pilot to land there, such is the game he played, oneupmanship.
berating a pilot, who he taken out in a T-33 over the Edwards lake for area famil, for landing on the lake and getting the aircraft bogged.
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Correct, CG.
While Yeager was notable for a couple of things, I'm afraid he seems to have become a bit of a 'legend in his own lunchtime'.
Not the kind of person I'd care to have around to dinner with friends.
While Yeager was notable for a couple of things, I'm afraid he seems to have become a bit of a 'legend in his own lunchtime'.
Not the kind of person I'd care to have around to dinner with friends.
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I had the pleasure to speak briefly to Bob Hoover in Tasmania after he'd been checked out and licensed as fit to fly in Australia after his licence had been revoked by the FAA.
An absolute and thorough Gentleman. My only beef was that he was so intent on asking me questions that I didn't get much of a chance to ask mine before our time was up.
Along with Winkle, the best aviator to grace the skies.
An absolute and thorough Gentleman. My only beef was that he was so intent on asking me questions that I didn't get much of a chance to ask mine before our time was up.
Along with Winkle, the best aviator to grace the skies.
I remember reading the comment made by the Australian examiner after giving Bob Hoover his flying test - something along the lines of "You can often learn a lot from the experienced pilot when you do these tests, and I certainly learned from this one!"
PDR
PDR