The Battle of Britain
A poignant tale from me...
Prior to the formation of the (now ) BBMF, it was decided in the early 50's that some additional Spitfire pilots were needed for said BoB day flypasts. The wartime pilots were becoming a bit thin on the ground.
RAF Duxford was seen as a suitable base for said pilots, and so one pilot from each of the resident squadrons (64 and 65 sqdns) were chosen.
Our hero had always wanted to fly a Spitfire (I should think most of us do)....and so with much anticipation he grabbed his flying helmet and a copy of the relevant pilots notes, and excitedly waited his flight.
Very sadly the other pilot came in to land the Spitfire, and whilst landing, ground looped it, and 'broke' it. Our hero was most disappointed-he never got to fly a Spitfire.
He completed his tour on the Meteor NF, and was offered a permanent commission-however on the day of his interview Mr Duncan Sandys released his infamous White Paper-both he and the AOC spent the whole interview crying on each others shoulders. Flying a desk was not for him, so he left and joined BOAC-and ended up a 747 Captain at BA/Virgin.
Many years later our hero was very proud to attend his owns son's graduation from the Towers. Everything was going very smoothly until he discovered the identity of the reviewing officer...it was none other than the chap who had 'broke' that Spitfire upon landing....he was now a 1*....
Our hero's son pleaded with his dad not to say anything, as he didn't want his fledgling RAF career to be over before it had begun. Our hero being the gentleman he was, didn't pop over and say hello.....
A funny tale, but very poignant, as our hero, Les Millgate, a very good friend and mentor of myself, sadly took off for his last flight last week. A real gentleman, and more importantly, a really lovely bloke. I met Les as we were both in the same volunteer group at .....IWM Duxford.
I'm raising a glass for you Les, and I hope wherever you are, you get that flight in a Spitfire you truly deserve.
Prior to the formation of the (now ) BBMF, it was decided in the early 50's that some additional Spitfire pilots were needed for said BoB day flypasts. The wartime pilots were becoming a bit thin on the ground.
RAF Duxford was seen as a suitable base for said pilots, and so one pilot from each of the resident squadrons (64 and 65 sqdns) were chosen.
Our hero had always wanted to fly a Spitfire (I should think most of us do)....and so with much anticipation he grabbed his flying helmet and a copy of the relevant pilots notes, and excitedly waited his flight.
Very sadly the other pilot came in to land the Spitfire, and whilst landing, ground looped it, and 'broke' it. Our hero was most disappointed-he never got to fly a Spitfire.
He completed his tour on the Meteor NF, and was offered a permanent commission-however on the day of his interview Mr Duncan Sandys released his infamous White Paper-both he and the AOC spent the whole interview crying on each others shoulders. Flying a desk was not for him, so he left and joined BOAC-and ended up a 747 Captain at BA/Virgin.
Many years later our hero was very proud to attend his owns son's graduation from the Towers. Everything was going very smoothly until he discovered the identity of the reviewing officer...it was none other than the chap who had 'broke' that Spitfire upon landing....he was now a 1*....
Our hero's son pleaded with his dad not to say anything, as he didn't want his fledgling RAF career to be over before it had begun. Our hero being the gentleman he was, didn't pop over and say hello.....
A funny tale, but very poignant, as our hero, Les Millgate, a very good friend and mentor of myself, sadly took off for his last flight last week. A real gentleman, and more importantly, a really lovely bloke. I met Les as we were both in the same volunteer group at .....IWM Duxford.
I'm raising a glass for you Les, and I hope wherever you are, you get that flight in a Spitfire you truly deserve.
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Tomorrow evening our local Air Training Corps Squadron will be having their annual Battle of Britain Dinner which is a formal black tie dinner and the highlight of the Squadrons social calendar.
The vast majority of attendees will be young people who were not even born in the 20th Century and yet will honour those events with due solemnity and dignity.
Dont believe everything that the Press tell you about the youth of today.
The vast majority of attendees will be young people who were not even born in the 20th Century and yet will honour those events with due solemnity and dignity.
Dont believe everything that the Press tell you about the youth of today.
IWM Duxford hosted a party from RAF Henlow today-they made some excellent presentations on some of the tactics used in, and other aspects of the Battle of Britain.
I believe it was their commemorative BoB dinner tonight-wishing them a very pleasant evening.
I believe it was their commemorative BoB dinner tonight-wishing them a very pleasant evening.
Kenley
Just a reminder that Kenley (most complete 11 group airfield in its wartime state) is still with us and under MOD control, and when the ATC top brass get their act together will hopefully continue as a base for ATC Gliding again. Amazingly the Aug 18th raid left most of the camp area intact despite the loss of all but one of the WW1 Belfasts. The science museum Hurricane (615 County of Surrey) is a survivor from that raid having been in action on that day. The 11 group fields really did get a hammering, but were never non operational despite the shambles, and the GPO (as was) managed to keep the phone lines open that kept the system operational.
Cunning Artificer
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Today is the Day. 15th September.
"Never in the field of human conflict have so many owed so much to so few."
Not many of you left now, chaps, but we still remember you all...
The Few.jpg
Probably copyrighted somewhere, but I don't think they'll mind it being here.
"Never in the field of human conflict have so many owed so much to so few."
Not many of you left now, chaps, but we still remember you all...
The Few.jpg
Probably copyrighted somewhere, but I don't think they'll mind it being here.
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Posts: n/a
insty66 (#60),
I owe General Arnold a lot. As the Commanding General of the US South East Air Training Air Centre, he was the instigator of the 1941 "Arnold Scheme", under which some 7,000 plus RAF LAC u/t pilots were given training in his own military schools (I was one). The RAF got 4,000 plus pilots back (I was one - luckily, as the other 3,000 odd were "washed out[40% wastage] for reasons which are argued about to this day). 500 plus were "creamed off" as QFIs, and kept back in the States to instruct on the six British Flying Training Schools which the US set up for us in the southern States concurrently with the "Arnold" ones. For the first six months of their existence, both Schools were in flagrant breach of America's "neutrality" policy - but Hitler could do little about it, as he had his hands full with Russia at the time.
I did not know about "Hap's" generous "obiter dicta" you quote; there was another after he saw Cologne just after VE Day: "It was horrible - there was nothing, absolutely nothing, left" (as I tentatively recall the wording). I still treasure my USAAC wings to this day. (The whole Arnold story is on Wikipedia, well worth a read).
''''''''''''''''''
Treble one (#62),
Bit puzzled about this:
..."Prior to the formation of the (now ) BBMF, it was decided in the early 50's that some additional Spitfire pilots were needed for said BoB day flypasts. The wartime pilots were becoming a bit thin on the ground"...
Not as thin as all that: in Sept '51, 20 Sqn disbanded (were we the last Sqn to operate the Spit ?), putting on the market a whole squadron of experienced wartime spitfire pilots with 2-300 more hours postwar on the XVIs (inc little me). I was ground-toured as Adj of an Aux Fighter Control Unit. Nobody asked me if I wanted to take part in any BoB flypast, don't remember anything in A.M.O.s then or later. In late '54 the CMB permanently grounded me, anyway - was the hue 'n cry for Spit drivers after that ?
I can only affirm that, neither on my (1942) OTU at Hawarden, nor anywhere else did I ever see (or hear of) a Spitfire ground-looping. At OTU, seeing its little splayed-out wheels, and having come off AT6As or its alter ego the Harvard (which would ground-loop at the drop of a hat), we feared the worst. But it didn't happen. Perhaps the "splay" had something to do with it. All I can say is the 1* must've been ham-footted to a degree to provoke it to do something so far out of character.
Which was the stuff of dreams ! There can't be anything nicer to fly than a Spit. If there are aircraft in Heaven, they will be Spits. Les, I raise my "Complan" to you in salute - will be seeing you there before all that long, anyway - (always supposing both of us con our way past St. Peter).
Predictably, the Meeja have forgotten all about what happened here 77 years ago. I remember writing in a Post, way back: "We [the RAF] saved Britain from its greatest peril in a thousand years". I hasten to add that I took no part in it myself, (did not get to a Spit cockpit until two years later). I believe some 3,000 pilots took part (ie were on the fighter strengths of 11 or 12 Groups during the battle). Of these, 600 odd were killed in the battle: of the remaining 2,400 a further 800 odd were killed later in the war, making a total of 1,400, or 47% - much the same as the Bomber Command fatality rates later.
BBC in a froth of hysteria about the "bomb" (glorified firework) at Parson's Green tube station which created such mayhem there this morning. Very sorry for those wounded, of course, but sorry, friends, take it from me, if a "bomb" "explodes", you know. They've been on about it for five hours solid so far. Not a cheep about the BoB anniversary (or anything else for that matter). Did any other Channel remember - or the papers ?
"The Nation that forgets its history is condemned to repeat it".
Danny.
I owe General Arnold a lot. As the Commanding General of the US South East Air Training Air Centre, he was the instigator of the 1941 "Arnold Scheme", under which some 7,000 plus RAF LAC u/t pilots were given training in his own military schools (I was one). The RAF got 4,000 plus pilots back (I was one - luckily, as the other 3,000 odd were "washed out[40% wastage] for reasons which are argued about to this day). 500 plus were "creamed off" as QFIs, and kept back in the States to instruct on the six British Flying Training Schools which the US set up for us in the southern States concurrently with the "Arnold" ones. For the first six months of their existence, both Schools were in flagrant breach of America's "neutrality" policy - but Hitler could do little about it, as he had his hands full with Russia at the time.
I did not know about "Hap's" generous "obiter dicta" you quote; there was another after he saw Cologne just after VE Day: "It was horrible - there was nothing, absolutely nothing, left" (as I tentatively recall the wording). I still treasure my USAAC wings to this day. (The whole Arnold story is on Wikipedia, well worth a read).
''''''''''''''''''
Treble one (#62),
Bit puzzled about this:
..."Prior to the formation of the (now ) BBMF, it was decided in the early 50's that some additional Spitfire pilots were needed for said BoB day flypasts. The wartime pilots were becoming a bit thin on the ground"...
Not as thin as all that: in Sept '51, 20 Sqn disbanded (were we the last Sqn to operate the Spit ?), putting on the market a whole squadron of experienced wartime spitfire pilots with 2-300 more hours postwar on the XVIs (inc little me). I was ground-toured as Adj of an Aux Fighter Control Unit. Nobody asked me if I wanted to take part in any BoB flypast, don't remember anything in A.M.O.s then or later. In late '54 the CMB permanently grounded me, anyway - was the hue 'n cry for Spit drivers after that ?
I can only affirm that, neither on my (1942) OTU at Hawarden, nor anywhere else did I ever see (or hear of) a Spitfire ground-looping. At OTU, seeing its little splayed-out wheels, and having come off AT6As or its alter ego the Harvard (which would ground-loop at the drop of a hat), we feared the worst. But it didn't happen. Perhaps the "splay" had something to do with it. All I can say is the 1* must've been ham-footted to a degree to provoke it to do something so far out of character.
Which was the stuff of dreams ! There can't be anything nicer to fly than a Spit. If there are aircraft in Heaven, they will be Spits. Les, I raise my "Complan" to you in salute - will be seeing you there before all that long, anyway - (always supposing both of us con our way past St. Peter).
Predictably, the Meeja have forgotten all about what happened here 77 years ago. I remember writing in a Post, way back: "We [the RAF] saved Britain from its greatest peril in a thousand years". I hasten to add that I took no part in it myself, (did not get to a Spit cockpit until two years later). I believe some 3,000 pilots took part (ie were on the fighter strengths of 11 or 12 Groups during the battle). Of these, 600 odd were killed in the battle: of the remaining 2,400 a further 800 odd were killed later in the war, making a total of 1,400, or 47% - much the same as the Bomber Command fatality rates later.
BBC in a froth of hysteria about the "bomb" (glorified firework) at Parson's Green tube station which created such mayhem there this morning. Very sorry for those wounded, of course, but sorry, friends, take it from me, if a "bomb" "explodes", you know. They've been on about it for five hours solid so far. Not a cheep about the BoB anniversary (or anything else for that matter). Did any other Channel remember - or the papers ?
"The Nation that forgets its history is condemned to repeat it".
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 15th Sep 2017 at 12:47. Reason: Sort the Spacing Out.
Danny sir
Thanks for the update-maybe I got the story wrong, or misunderstood what Les told me.
The bit about the bent Spitfire and the subsequent Cranwell 'reunion' are very definitely true :-)
I've never seen a Spitfire ground looped-in fact the only warbird I've seen doing that was a Hellcat would you believe? I will bow to your far superior knowledge and experience on such matters!
I can only dream about flying a Spitfire like many of us. However I remain grateful like unlike yourself, that if I ever did get the thrill, at least no one would be trying to kill me at the same time.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
TO (Chris)
Thanks for the update-maybe I got the story wrong, or misunderstood what Les told me.
The bit about the bent Spitfire and the subsequent Cranwell 'reunion' are very definitely true :-)
I've never seen a Spitfire ground looped-in fact the only warbird I've seen doing that was a Hellcat would you believe? I will bow to your far superior knowledge and experience on such matters!
I can only dream about flying a Spitfire like many of us. However I remain grateful like unlike yourself, that if I ever did get the thrill, at least no one would be trying to kill me at the same time.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
TO (Chris)
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I say this not to detract or to take anything away from the pilots and other aircrew who fort in the B of B but please also remember the poor bloody ground crews who kept the aircraft flying. Quite a lot gave their lives or were badly wounded at Kenley, Biggin Hill, Croydon, Rochester and all the other airfields involved in the battle. Many of these chaps slept under hedges and hardly knew what a hot meal was from the middle of August through to late September but were always there day and night keeping the aircraft fit for battle.
Without the dedication of these chaps the battle could not have been fort. It is also perhaps worth remembering that they too were a scarce resource with engine fitters and riggers taking almost twice as long to train as pilots.
Without the dedication of these chaps the battle could not have been fort. It is also perhaps worth remembering that they too were a scarce resource with engine fitters and riggers taking almost twice as long to train as pilots.
Quite so. Your phrase "and other aircrew" is well chosen, as a considerable number of Blenheim squadrons took part in the Battle, each aircraft with an observer and air gunner. There were other two seat types as well, so although the image is understandably of a single seat fighter pilot, this is not the whole story.
No, not all of Fighter Command in action
In replying to Robert Cooper, may I point out it was only 11Group who were fully engaged. 10 and 12 Group were both able to hold units in reserve.
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Tomorrow evening our local Air Training Corps Squadron will be having their annual Battle of Britain Dinner which is a formal black tie dinner and the highlight of the Squadrons social calendar.
The vast majority of attendees will be young people who were not even born in the 20th Century and yet will honour those events with due solemnity and dignity.
Dont believe everything that the Press tell you about the youth of today.
The vast majority of attendees will be young people who were not even born in the 20th Century and yet will honour those events with due solemnity and dignity.
Dont believe everything that the Press tell you about the youth of today.
Glad to see that you are actively promoting the anniversary amongst the ATC, future Aviators/Flt Support members of the RAF.
Yob: "What did you get up to this weekend....?"
Cdt: "I had a 4-course dinner with the Mayor, the local Cdt Commandant, Station Commander of RAF wherever, Chief Constable of wherever.........., What did you do?"
Yob: "I graffiti'd a train tunnel and got caught - 20hrs community service!! - You SPAZ!!!"
Best Bib & Tuckers All Round?, Staff in No1s/No5s, CWO in No4s?, Any local RAF Support Staff in No1s/No4s/No5s?
Last edited by unclenelli; 15th Sep 2017 at 18:53.
Cazalet33 , notwithstanding that chap's rather inelegant appearance, he is at least helping to maintain the airmindedness of today's yoof.
Sneering at the way he looks is extremely distasteful - the poor chap is probably only doing his best. Which is a darn sight more than can be said for others....
Sneering at the way he looks is extremely distasteful - the poor chap is probably only doing his best. Which is a darn sight more than can be said for others....
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Originally Posted by Robert Cooper
Anyone who has a good understanding of the Battle will understand what "Robert Cooper" was suggesting in his post re; reserves made by AVM Park.
Hough and Richards take up the story @ pp 250/251 of the below source:
The Battle of Britain
By Richard Hough, Denis Richards
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...sation&f=false
Following on from the above is Dowding himself:
[the source I link to below enables me to cut & past the text directly, rather than me having to type it myself as I needed to above, so I will use a larger portion of it]
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/batt...eplytocom=1501
It is therefore to be understood that Park was referring to the 100 % commitment of all fully fit squadrons(except for the few (b) squadrons which were in any event a further distance from 11 group airfields and would arrive if called on even later than the Duxford Wing).
The remainder were not fully operational or indeed were reduced to the status of training squadrons.
The a,b,c, categorisation of squadrons implemented by Dowding as outlined above is otherwise known as the "Stabilisation Scheme", references to which are to be found on the 'net with very little effort involved.
15 September 1940. Every fighter squadron was committed in battle, the RAF had no reserves.
Neatly dramatised by Churchill (and the movie), but when Park replied 'there a none' when asked what reserves he had, he was only speaking for 11 Group. Although the RAF were no doubt stretched between 13:45 and 15:45 there were squadrons in 10 and 12 Groups available to call on.
Hough and Richards take up the story @ pp 250/251 of the below source:
The Battle of Britain
By Richard Hough, Denis Richards
By 6 September every Hurricane or Spitfire squadron that could reasonably be used in 11 Group or the two 'hot' adjoining sectors (Duxford in 12{Bader Wing}, Middle Wallop in 10) was either serving there, or had been serving there in the previous month. There were no further fresh squadrons fit to take the place of the battered ones. As Dowding later wrote: 'By the beginning of September the incidence of casualties became so serious that a fresh squadron would become depleted and exhausted before any resting or reformed squadron was ready to take it's place'(9)
Following on from the above is Dowding himself:
[the source I link to below enables me to cut & past the text directly, rather than me having to type it myself as I needed to above, so I will use a larger portion of it]
Battle of Britain in the Words of Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding
(from page one of eight)
The Shortage of Pilots
[.....]
By the beginning of September the incidence of casualties became so serious that a fresh squadron would become depleted and exhausted before any of the resting and reforming squadrons was ready to take its place. Fighter pilots were no longer being produced in numbers sufficient to fill the gaps in the fighting ranks. Transfers were made from the Fleet Air Arm and from the Bomber and Coastal Commands, but these pilots naturally required a short flying course on Hurricanes or Spitfires and some instruction in formation flying, fighter tactics and interception procedure.
I considered, but discarded, the advisability of combining pairs of weak units into single squadrons at full strength, for several reasons, one of which was the difficulty of recovery when a lull should come. Another was that ground personnel would be wasted, and a third was that the rate at which the strength of the Command was decreasing would be obvious.
I decided to form 3 Categories of Squadrons:
[.....]
(from page one of eight)
The Shortage of Pilots
[.....]
By the beginning of September the incidence of casualties became so serious that a fresh squadron would become depleted and exhausted before any of the resting and reforming squadrons was ready to take its place. Fighter pilots were no longer being produced in numbers sufficient to fill the gaps in the fighting ranks. Transfers were made from the Fleet Air Arm and from the Bomber and Coastal Commands, but these pilots naturally required a short flying course on Hurricanes or Spitfires and some instruction in formation flying, fighter tactics and interception procedure.
I considered, but discarded, the advisability of combining pairs of weak units into single squadrons at full strength, for several reasons, one of which was the difficulty of recovery when a lull should come. Another was that ground personnel would be wasted, and a third was that the rate at which the strength of the Command was decreasing would be obvious.
I decided to form 3 Categories of Squadrons:
- (a) The units of 11 Group and on its immediate flanks(including Duxford and Middle Wallop - At Ease italics), which were bearing the brunt of the fighting.
- (b) A few outside units to be maintained at operational strength and to be available as unit reliefs in cases where this was unavoidable.
- (c) The remaining squadrons of the Command, which would be stripped of their operational pilots, for; the benefit of the A squadrons, down to a level of 5 or 6. These C squadrons could devote their main energies to the training of new pilots, and, although they would not be fit to meet German Fighters, they would be quite capable of defending their Sectors against unescorted Bombers, which would be all that they would be likely to encounter.
[.....]
It is therefore to be understood that Park was referring to the 100 % commitment of all fully fit squadrons(except for the few (b) squadrons which were in any event a further distance from 11 group airfields and would arrive if called on even later than the Duxford Wing).
The remainder were not fully operational or indeed were reduced to the status of training squadrons.
The a,b,c, categorisation of squadrons implemented by Dowding as outlined above is otherwise known as the "Stabilisation Scheme", references to which are to be found on the 'net with very little effort involved.
Last edited by At ease; 16th Sep 2017 at 06:32.
Thank you for that succinct and informative post, At ease. Others will no doubt cavil at the detail, but if this long running thread has any purpose it is surely to inform and to learn about this pivotal battle. You have done the former and I, for one, the latter.
Incidentally, the explanation of Dowding's Stabilisation Scheme illustrates quite clearly what a great leader he was. We were very lucky to have the right man, in the right job, and at the right time.
Incidentally, the explanation of Dowding's Stabilisation Scheme illustrates quite clearly what a great leader he was. We were very lucky to have the right man, in the right job, and at the right time.
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Thank you for that succinct and informative post, At ease. Others will no doubt cavil at the detail, but if this long running thread has any purpose it is surely to inform and to learn about this pivotal battle. You have done the former and I, for one, the latter.
Incidentally, the explanation of Dowding's Stabilisation Scheme illustrates quite clearly what a great leader he was. We were very lucky to have the right man, in the right job, and at the right time.
Incidentally, the explanation of Dowding's Stabilisation Scheme illustrates quite clearly what a great leader he was. We were very lucky to have the right man, in the right job, and at the right time.
Indeed, he was a great leader.
From pp84/85 of:
War: A Matter of Principles
By Air Marshal David Evans
Although he suffered resentment and ingratitude at the time, and was retired immediately the battle was won, Churchill, much later, was big enough to pay tribute to Dowding's perceptiveness and generalship when writing his account of World War II:
The foresight of Air Marshal Dowding in his direction of fighter command deserves high praise, but even more remarkable has been the restraint and the exact measurement of formidable stresses which had reserved a fighter force in the north during all these long weeks of mortal combat in the south. We must regard the generalship here shown as an example of genius in the art of war.