Checking on a potential 'Mitty'
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Old Bricks, good point. Now our staish at Coningsby was quite proud of his number, began 4231. It meant he had been able to jump above the 4th missing 3rd rung on his DEC tie and topped out on the 5th - well below a Warrant Officer's climb to fame
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, in the Cold War we expected the Soviets to have the AF List, the Gazette, and any Home Town Boy stories. Match that to your dog tags and they were half way there. WAD, COT, CON etc scrawled inside one's flying kit just about completed your public persona for interrogation.
Now, with Farsebook, BMD records etc they have you cradle to cell - who needs the RAF List?
Now, with Farsebook, BMD records etc they have you cradle to cell - who needs the RAF List?
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A reply on the link from Warmtoasts post
Do the Royals come under the category of re-enactment or acting?
P-N - I agree, with all the other sources you mention potential baddies have all the info they need without having to refer to a simple list of names. If they can check my internet usage, for example, they will find I am addicted to porn (of the aviation and railway variety 
)
I've read Warmtoast's link and I'm not sure that I think criminalising Walt medal wearers is the way to go. Scorn and contempt, yes, but I dont think we need more laws - the blokes that are using a fabricated service career to faciliate fraud are already committing an offence, but I dont think jail is the place for the sad characters who just want to strut around on Remembrance Day parades etc. I understand the Americans have their Stolen Valor laws, but do we want to follow in their footsteps? In the US the military have gone from being objects of contempt back in the 60s to the present state of affairs where a pay clerk at Fort Hicksville, Idaho is treated as a war hero.
Nutloose - do they include Prince Phillip, Prince William, Prince Harry or Prince Andrew in their category?
)I've read Warmtoast's link and I'm not sure that I think criminalising Walt medal wearers is the way to go. Scorn and contempt, yes, but I dont think we need more laws - the blokes that are using a fabricated service career to faciliate fraud are already committing an offence, but I dont think jail is the place for the sad characters who just want to strut around on Remembrance Day parades etc. I understand the Americans have their Stolen Valor laws, but do we want to follow in their footsteps? In the US the military have gone from being objects of contempt back in the 60s to the present state of affairs where a pay clerk at Fort Hicksville, Idaho is treated as a war hero.
Nutloose - do they include Prince Phillip, Prince William, Prince Harry or Prince Andrew in their category?
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I'm surprised there is no offical guidance - or at least no-one has posted a link to same on here
Suggests there are really no current rules and you can do what you wish........ short of mis-representation in the course of a crime I guess......
Suggests there are really no current rules and you can do what you wish........ short of mis-representation in the course of a crime I guess......
TTN, I worked with a walt who was passing himself off as a Lt. Col., and was outed after organising a rather large Anzac Day parade. In court, he was fined some small, odd amount - presumably what he had in his pocket.
About 20 years later, he'd promoted himself to Brigadier, and the small country Returned Services League club where he was a member was bitterly divided over whether he was real or not. Of course, the army could not find his records because the WW II operations he was involved in were still top secret.
About 20 years later, he'd promoted himself to Brigadier, and the small country Returned Services League club where he was a member was bitterly divided over whether he was real or not. Of course, the army could not find his records because the WW II operations he was involved in were still top secret.
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I dont think jail is the place for the sad characters who just want to strut around on Remembrance Day parades etc
The last one I ever went to I had too, as the RAF put me on the parade.
I do wonder if some of these sad people are failed military applicants living out their little fantasy world.
It would be interesting to see how they worded the actual law...
How would a new law cope with people who dress up and go to vintage rallies / re enactments wearing uniforms...I guess that in itself is probably ok...but some do wear medals/ribbons etc....would that be an offence?
How would a new law cope with people who dress up and go to vintage rallies / re enactments wearing uniforms...I guess that in itself is probably ok...but some do wear medals/ribbons etc....would that be an offence?
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I'm surprised there is no official guidance - or at least no-one has posted a link to same on here
In short, Flt Lt and above. Acting rank if held for an aggregate period of at least two years during his service, or continuously for one year immediately before leaving the Active List.
Also, the rules for those who served during the Second World War are a lot more relaxed and acting rank up to 1954 counts.
Gentleman Aviator
I come late to this thread, having just returned from some time with a chum who retired to Chiantishire (rather than Teeteringshire). Life halfway up a Tuscan big hill (small mountain?) has many advantages, but Internet connectivity ain't one of them.
I've got few inputs, mostly on thread drifts........
RO/MSF Posts Some of these posts required uniform, for example those full time posts supporting Air Cadets (now mostly FTRS I think). Those guys held commissions in the RAFR, either J Class (same I think as Met Men like Langleyb) or subsequently "CC" (civilian component). They held commissions in the reserve, and had 1250s etc.
Service Numbers and Prefix/Suffix Letters The letters are always there if not used, as they were indeed "checksums". Those of us who joined as "gutter entry" (sorry - Direct Entry) were enlisted as airmen for administrative convenience, and had - in my time - 7 digit numbers, preceded by a letter until commissioned - cos that was the blighters' way. So Q4232123 as an "airman"/officer cadet became 4232123Q on commissioning. The "first 4" betrayed the origin, For DE aircrew, South Cerney had 4231/2xxx, which became 8024xxx when ITS became AOTS at Fenton. Other oddities - sorry ladies - was that WRAF officers had 4 figure numbers; those of my vintage began with 4.
Group Captain (and above) Numbers Always there in there background I suppose, but not used until the advent of computers and numbers on 1250s/MoD 90s. All now have and use numbers.
Air Force Lists Sadly the so-called online version was nothing of the sort; it seemed to be just a list of who was in which post. It was always the "other stuff" in the List that one found most interesting (and often useful). HQ Staff Lists, ADCs (and similar) to HM, names and locations of Attaches, Squadron Battle Honours and prize-winners at Cranditz and Staff College. Plus all the WOs and MACRs. And of course ALL commissions, including VR(T), RAuxAF and the oddities of J Class and CC which I mention above. Also obituaries
and the Retired List which has also gone. Last published IIRC in 2007..... it seems it would have answered the OPs question easily too....
Walting I think it does need some legislation, but common sense or de minimis defence should separate re-enactors (or actors - Section Officer Harvey anyone) from sad gits or real Walts. There is Victorian legislation about wearing uniforms - the Uniform Act of 1894 - but mostly (at present) it requires "intent to deceive" to be illegal.
Notable British "Walts" include Alan Mcilwraith and Roger Day.
The ANZACs are particularly keen "Walt Hunters" too as the ANZMI Website clearly shows....
Sorry to go on so long, but I missed a week!!
I've got few inputs, mostly on thread drifts........
RO/MSF Posts Some of these posts required uniform, for example those full time posts supporting Air Cadets (now mostly FTRS I think). Those guys held commissions in the RAFR, either J Class (same I think as Met Men like Langleyb) or subsequently "CC" (civilian component). They held commissions in the reserve, and had 1250s etc.
Service Numbers and Prefix/Suffix Letters The letters are always there if not used, as they were indeed "checksums". Those of us who joined as "gutter entry" (sorry - Direct Entry) were enlisted as airmen for administrative convenience, and had - in my time - 7 digit numbers, preceded by a letter until commissioned - cos that was the blighters' way. So Q4232123 as an "airman"/officer cadet became 4232123Q on commissioning. The "first 4" betrayed the origin, For DE aircrew, South Cerney had 4231/2xxx, which became 8024xxx when ITS became AOTS at Fenton. Other oddities - sorry ladies - was that WRAF officers had 4 figure numbers; those of my vintage began with 4.
Group Captain (and above) Numbers Always there in there background I suppose, but not used until the advent of computers and numbers on 1250s/MoD 90s. All now have and use numbers.
Air Force Lists Sadly the so-called online version was nothing of the sort; it seemed to be just a list of who was in which post. It was always the "other stuff" in the List that one found most interesting (and often useful). HQ Staff Lists, ADCs (and similar) to HM, names and locations of Attaches, Squadron Battle Honours and prize-winners at Cranditz and Staff College. Plus all the WOs and MACRs. And of course ALL commissions, including VR(T), RAuxAF and the oddities of J Class and CC which I mention above. Also obituaries
and the Retired List which has also gone. Last published IIRC in 2007..... it seems it would have answered the OPs question easily too....Walting I think it does need some legislation, but common sense or de minimis defence should separate re-enactors (or actors - Section Officer Harvey anyone
) from sad gits or real Walts. There is Victorian legislation about wearing uniforms - the Uniform Act of 1894 - but mostly (at present) it requires "intent to deceive" to be illegal.Notable British "Walts" include Alan Mcilwraith and Roger Day.
The ANZACs are particularly keen "Walt Hunters" too as the ANZMI Website clearly shows....
Sorry to go on so long, but I missed a week!!
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Day's medals had been bought for him by his younger wife, who believed he was a much-decorated war hero whose medals had been lost in action or sold. She set about replacing them "out of kindness", buying from veterans and online dealers.
LOL
Mcilwraith
An Army spokesperson was quoted by the newspaper as saying, "I can confirm he is a fraud. He has never been an officer, soldier or Army cadet. May I suggest you try the space cadet organisation."
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Thanks SSBob - it looks like page 38-19 is the one:-
SECTION 8 -
RANK ON RETIREMENT, RESIGNATION, ETC..
Retention of Rank by Officers on leaving the Active List. Sponsor: RAF Employment Policy
(1) An officer of the regular air force placed on the retired list or on the reserve will be shown in his substantive rank. An officer of the rank of flight lieutenant or above leaving the reserve, or having no reserve liability, may be permitted to use his rank as a courtesy title subject to clauses (7) and (8) and to completion of 3 years service on the Active List.
(2) Subject to clauses (7) and (8), with effect from 1 January 1956, an officer of the regular air force, other than an officer serving on a national service commission, may be permitted to retain as a courtesy title in civil life a rank higher than his substantive rank on leaving the Active List, provided that he had held
such higher acting rank for an aggregate period of at least two years during his service, or continuously for one year immediately before leaving the Active List. For this purpose, service in a higher acting rank, may if it is advantageous to do so, be counted as service in a lower acting rank.
(3) Officers who reverted to the rank of flight lieutenant on entering the former Supplementary List may be permitted to retain the substantive rank they held immediately before transfer or appointment to that List.
(4) As stated in clause (2), these regulations are effective from 1 January 1956, but officers who served during the Second World War, 1939-1945 and for whom the regulations in force before 1 January 1956, are more favorable, will continue to be treated under the old regulations (see clauses (5) and (6)).
(5) Second World War, 1939-1945. The regulations applicable to officers who served during the Second World War, 1939-1945, are as follows:
(a) Officers, on leaving the Active List, may be allowed to retain their substantive or war substantive rank, or, if more favourable, either:
(i) Their highest temporary or paid acting rank, provided that they have held such rank for an aggregate period of at least six months (for this purpose any periods of tenure of such rank will be reckoned cumulatively, and service in a higher temporary or paid acting rank may, if it is advantageous to do so, be counted as service in a lower rank, eg a flight lieutenant who held the temporary rank of squadron leader for four months and the paid acting rank of wing commander for discontinuous periods aggregating two months, may be allowed to retain the rank of squadron leader)
(ii) Any temporary or paid acting rank held immediately before the beginning of absence from duty on account of disabilities attributable to air force service as a result of which they cease to be employed and relinquish their commissions or are placed on the retired list, etc.
(b) Any period of temporary or paid acting rank held by an officer whilst seconded or attached to another arm of the Service may count as under (a).
(c) An officer who, on being taken into employment as an officer during the war relinquished rank previously held, may, on leaving the Active List, resume that rank or may be allowed to retain any higher rank for which he is qualified under this clause.
(d) To be eligible for the retention of rank, officers must have been in receipt of RAF, as distinct from civil, emoluments during their service on the active list.
(e) The provisions of this clause have retrospective effect to 3 September 1939, but service in a paid acting or temporary rank after 10 February 1954, will not count towards the qualifying period defined in (a)(i).
(6) In all cases permission to retain rank will be contingent upon an officer's service having been satisfactory throughout, and the Defence Council reserve the right to withhold or withdraw this privilege at their discretion at any time. Officers who resign their commissions will be dealt with in accordance with
para 3005.
(7) The counting of acting rank for retired pay purposes is governed by separate regulations (see para 2933) and the grant, under the provisions of clauses 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 of permission to retain higher acting rank on leaving the active list will not effect an officer's rate of retired pay, nor will it entitle him to recall in
the higher rank (see para 3003). It will permit him to use the courtesy title in civil life and to wear the uniform appropriate to the higher rank on occasions of ceremony, in accordance with AP 1358 -Dress Regulations for Officers.3003.
SECTION 8 -
RANK ON RETIREMENT, RESIGNATION, ETC..
Retention of Rank by Officers on leaving the Active List. Sponsor: RAF Employment Policy
(1) An officer of the regular air force placed on the retired list or on the reserve will be shown in his substantive rank. An officer of the rank of flight lieutenant or above leaving the reserve, or having no reserve liability, may be permitted to use his rank as a courtesy title subject to clauses (7) and (8) and to completion of 3 years service on the Active List.
(2) Subject to clauses (7) and (8), with effect from 1 January 1956, an officer of the regular air force, other than an officer serving on a national service commission, may be permitted to retain as a courtesy title in civil life a rank higher than his substantive rank on leaving the Active List, provided that he had held
such higher acting rank for an aggregate period of at least two years during his service, or continuously for one year immediately before leaving the Active List. For this purpose, service in a higher acting rank, may if it is advantageous to do so, be counted as service in a lower acting rank.
(3) Officers who reverted to the rank of flight lieutenant on entering the former Supplementary List may be permitted to retain the substantive rank they held immediately before transfer or appointment to that List.
(4) As stated in clause (2), these regulations are effective from 1 January 1956, but officers who served during the Second World War, 1939-1945 and for whom the regulations in force before 1 January 1956, are more favorable, will continue to be treated under the old regulations (see clauses (5) and (6)).
(5) Second World War, 1939-1945. The regulations applicable to officers who served during the Second World War, 1939-1945, are as follows:
(a) Officers, on leaving the Active List, may be allowed to retain their substantive or war substantive rank, or, if more favourable, either:
(i) Their highest temporary or paid acting rank, provided that they have held such rank for an aggregate period of at least six months (for this purpose any periods of tenure of such rank will be reckoned cumulatively, and service in a higher temporary or paid acting rank may, if it is advantageous to do so, be counted as service in a lower rank, eg a flight lieutenant who held the temporary rank of squadron leader for four months and the paid acting rank of wing commander for discontinuous periods aggregating two months, may be allowed to retain the rank of squadron leader)
(ii) Any temporary or paid acting rank held immediately before the beginning of absence from duty on account of disabilities attributable to air force service as a result of which they cease to be employed and relinquish their commissions or are placed on the retired list, etc.
(b) Any period of temporary or paid acting rank held by an officer whilst seconded or attached to another arm of the Service may count as under (a).
(c) An officer who, on being taken into employment as an officer during the war relinquished rank previously held, may, on leaving the Active List, resume that rank or may be allowed to retain any higher rank for which he is qualified under this clause.
(d) To be eligible for the retention of rank, officers must have been in receipt of RAF, as distinct from civil, emoluments during their service on the active list.
(e) The provisions of this clause have retrospective effect to 3 September 1939, but service in a paid acting or temporary rank after 10 February 1954, will not count towards the qualifying period defined in (a)(i).
(6) In all cases permission to retain rank will be contingent upon an officer's service having been satisfactory throughout, and the Defence Council reserve the right to withhold or withdraw this privilege at their discretion at any time. Officers who resign their commissions will be dealt with in accordance with
para 3005.
(7) The counting of acting rank for retired pay purposes is governed by separate regulations (see para 2933) and the grant, under the provisions of clauses 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 of permission to retain higher acting rank on leaving the active list will not effect an officer's rate of retired pay, nor will it entitle him to recall in
the higher rank (see para 3003). It will permit him to use the courtesy title in civil life and to wear the uniform appropriate to the higher rank on occasions of ceremony, in accordance with AP 1358 -Dress Regulations for Officers.3003.
For Teeters:
I know of three types of commissions for Met Men.
One, as head of the Mobile Met Unit, said he was RAF Reserve, Wg Cdr, and wore uniform often. This included when he was doing his day job, which was primarily as a civilian.
The Mobile Met Unit were [are?] commissioned in the RAFVR I believe. The early volunteers were given a brief drinking test [port], shown how to salute, and were commissioned. From about 1990 they had to jump through a few hoops including a Vicars and Tarts course. I hope and believe that there are sufficient MMU to obviate any need for the "dormant" category, below.
Lowest of the low were those holding dormant commissions, to be activated by the Sec of State at TTW or thereabouts. These were mostly, if not all, in BFG, and the rank was civil service grade determined except for the boss man.
Thus Flt Lt at Guetersloh as an HSO, then it was Sqn Ldr as an SSO at JHQ as a senior forecaster, then as Gp Capt as a PSO in a "Chief" post at JHQ. A PSO normally attracted Wg Cdr only. All these Dormants had full kit held in stores for them, and their letters of appointment, rather terrifyingly for the proper RAF, gave them powers of command .......... and even a pistol. Regarding messing, I was treated as senior to the Wg Cdrs, junior to the Gp Capts and, inevitably, charged as a Gp Capt.
Fortunately for all of us, the Sec of S never signed the letters.
There is now only one Met Man in BFG [if at all] as adviser to G O C at Bielefeld. I expect he is MMU, sqn ldr.
I know of three types of commissions for Met Men.
One, as head of the Mobile Met Unit, said he was RAF Reserve, Wg Cdr, and wore uniform often. This included when he was doing his day job, which was primarily as a civilian.
The Mobile Met Unit were [are?] commissioned in the RAFVR I believe. The early volunteers were given a brief drinking test [port], shown how to salute, and were commissioned. From about 1990 they had to jump through a few hoops including a Vicars and Tarts course. I hope and believe that there are sufficient MMU to obviate any need for the "dormant" category, below.
Lowest of the low were those holding dormant commissions, to be activated by the Sec of State at TTW or thereabouts. These were mostly, if not all, in BFG, and the rank was civil service grade determined except for the boss man.
Thus Flt Lt at Guetersloh as an HSO, then it was Sqn Ldr as an SSO at JHQ as a senior forecaster, then as Gp Capt as a PSO in a "Chief" post at JHQ. A PSO normally attracted Wg Cdr only. All these Dormants had full kit held in stores for them, and their letters of appointment, rather terrifyingly for the proper RAF, gave them powers of command .......... and even a pistol. Regarding messing, I was treated as senior to the Wg Cdrs, junior to the Gp Capts and, inevitably, charged as a Gp Capt.
Fortunately for all of us, the Sec of S never signed the letters.
There is now only one Met Man in BFG [if at all] as adviser to G O C at Bielefeld. I expect he is MMU, sqn ldr.
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Just another thought - QR's apply to anyone in the Forces - but they have no force on someone who has never served... so W Mitty, Financial Consulatnt , can call himself whatever he wants I think unless & until he commits a fraud
The old Army Act 1955 had such an offence but no-one seems to be able to find it in the current (2006) Act. A quick search of same shows no mention of someone assuming a false rank at all................... even in the Service....... tho' I wouldn't advise trying it on.....
The old Army Act 1955 had such an offence but no-one seems to be able to find it in the current (2006) Act. A quick search of same shows no mention of someone assuming a false rank at all................... even in the Service....... tho' I wouldn't advise trying it on.....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Oberon, that featured in one of the Early Dad's Army episodes.
My wife's grandfather had an interesting career, enlisted in the Army before ending his engagement the day after the Battle of Loos. A short time later he joined the Royal Naval Patrol Service and served until mid 1919. He rejoined the RNPS in 1939 for the duration. Characteristically he said little and what the family thought they knew was both wrong and less than the whole. Similarly my old man said little about his sinking and he was economical with the story too.
My wife's grandfather had an interesting career, enlisted in the Army before ending his engagement the day after the Battle of Loos. A short time later he joined the Royal Naval Patrol Service and served until mid 1919. He rejoined the RNPS in 1939 for the duration. Characteristically he said little and what the family thought they knew was both wrong and less than the whole. Similarly my old man said little about his sinking and he was economical with the story too.
I remember sometime in the 70s when young lads seeking to ward off the icy winds that blow across Norfolk from the North Sea took the sensible precaution of equipping themselves with ex RAF greatcoats which they bought from MOD surplus stores for very little - certainly under a tenner.
An officers' confidential order came out to the effect that officers were to desist from the practice of buttonholing these long-haired Herberts and demanding to know why they were masquerading as airmen. As the coats had been bought legitimately from surplus stores, and there was obviously no intention to deceive, then the wearers were to be left alone.
TTH - I agree about the "other bits" in the RAF list being more interesting. Also the Army List made good reading, if only for title spotting, particularly amongst the guards and the cavalry regiments. My favourite was one chap I met on a course when I was a Rockape, who rejoiced under the title of Second Lieutenant The Master of Rollo. "Call me Rollo, old chap" was how he introduced himself. These guys, who were nearly always on a short service commission before running the estate or going into the family merchant bank were usually great value, as they certainly didnt take the army too seriously.
An officers' confidential order came out to the effect that officers were to desist from the practice of buttonholing these long-haired Herberts and demanding to know why they were masquerading as airmen. As the coats had been bought legitimately from surplus stores, and there was obviously no intention to deceive, then the wearers were to be left alone.
TTH - I agree about the "other bits" in the RAF list being more interesting. Also the Army List made good reading, if only for title spotting, particularly amongst the guards and the cavalry regiments. My favourite was one chap I met on a course when I was a Rockape, who rejoiced under the title of Second Lieutenant The Master of Rollo. "Call me Rollo, old chap" was how he introduced himself. These guys, who were nearly always on a short service commission before running the estate or going into the family merchant bank were usually great value, as they certainly didnt take the army too seriously.
Definitely no Uniform No 1, Officer, gadding about town, for the use of - not at Gutersloh anyway.
I didn't get to see my gear at Guetersloh 1967 to 1970, except I did have to keep a full set of combats with Met Office badge and name tape for deployment with HQ 1BR Corps, but I was certainly required to check once or twice each tour at JHQ, and there was a LOT to check, even natty brown gloves. Just as well it was held in store because it would have filled an OMQ wardrobe. No solar topee, as I recall.
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Pontius Navigator (your #78),
I'd always thought that, (as Kipling put it in "Boots"): "There's No Discharge In The War " (except, of course, on medical or age grounds - and that seems to be ruled out as he was allowed to re-enlist).
I'm not dogmatic about this - does anyone know the position in Army Law in 1915 ?
Danny.
... enlisted in the Army before ending his engagement the day after the Battle of Loos. A short time later he joined the Royal Naval Patrol Service and served until mid 1919...
I'm not dogmatic about this - does anyone know the position in Army Law in 1915 ?
Danny.