Wg Cdr Arthur Gill, OBE, DFC
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We will be meeting at lunch tomorrow with a few friends here in Virginia, one of whom is Danny's age. I must remember to tell him the outline of Danny's adventures and presence here. Sadly our older friend is almost blind now, so he doesn't use the Internet any more.
Our thoughts are with you, Danny.
Our thoughts are with you, Danny.
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Danny wrote this:
I'm immensely grateful and humbled by the number and shining sincerity of the condolences expressed to me and my wonderful daughter, and we can only say a simple "Thank you all". I came across these verses which I find meets my case, and may help others:
"Don't tell me that you understand
Don't tell me that you know
Don't tell me that I will survive
How I will surely grow
Don't come to me with answers
That can only come from me
Don't tell me how my grief will pass
That I will soon be free
Accept me just the way I am
I need someone to share
Just let me grieve and take my hand
To show me that you care"
And you, my friends, have done this admirably for me and my Mary. (As a bonus, thank you also for the kind things said about me and my scribblings - although it makes me feel as if I'm reading my own Obituary !)
Not to be out-done by the verse above.. I have a little ditty of my own to add (..not quite as well-polished):
They say 'he's ninety-four, you know...
(Is it really true?')
Such style, such wit... and fount of knowledge too!
Master of the Vultee 'Vee' and hero
of the type that's dressed
...only in Air Force Blue!
Oh, sing it out, let's sing it loud..
Some can hum the tune...
'Danny' Boy, Oh 'Danny'!
All declare him...
'KING OF PPRuNe!'
and now everyone is howling...
'DANNY!'... OH... O-U-R... D-A-N-N-Y!
(please 'Danny'... come back soon!)
I'm immensely grateful and humbled by the number and shining sincerity of the condolences expressed to me and my wonderful daughter, and we can only say a simple "Thank you all". I came across these verses which I find meets my case, and may help others:
"Don't tell me that you understand
Don't tell me that you know
Don't tell me that I will survive
How I will surely grow
Don't come to me with answers
That can only come from me
Don't tell me how my grief will pass
That I will soon be free
Accept me just the way I am
I need someone to share
Just let me grieve and take my hand
To show me that you care"
And you, my friends, have done this admirably for me and my Mary. (As a bonus, thank you also for the kind things said about me and my scribblings - although it makes me feel as if I'm reading my own Obituary !)
Not to be out-done by the verse above.. I have a little ditty of my own to add (..not quite as well-polished):
They say 'he's ninety-four, you know...
(Is it really true?')
Such style, such wit... and fount of knowledge too!
Master of the Vultee 'Vee' and hero
of the type that's dressed
...only in Air Force Blue!
Oh, sing it out, let's sing it loud..
Some can hum the tune...
'Danny' Boy, Oh 'Danny'!
All declare him...
'KING OF PPRuNe!'
and now everyone is howling...
'DANNY!'... OH... O-U-R... D-A-N-N-Y!
(please 'Danny'... come back soon!)
Last edited by NigG; 7th Sep 2016 at 19:19.
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Bloody Hell ... you'll embarrass him into silence at this rate 
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Danny's back in town.
MPN11, Thank you ! Danny (who has crept, purple with confusion, under the nearest flat stone !)
NigG,
What a marvellous bit of extempore verse - I can't match that !
The King of PPRuNe ? Not bloody likely ! ("....Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown...." ?)
No, it's a democracy here - back to the old cyber-crewroom, chaps, poke the stove, get the kettle on and the cards out - and SHUT THAT DOOR ! It's cold outside !
Danny.
NigG,
What a marvellous bit of extempore verse - I can't match that !
The King of PPRuNe ? Not bloody likely ! ("....Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown...." ?)
No, it's a democracy here - back to the old cyber-crewroom, chaps, poke the stove, get the kettle on and the cards out - and SHUT THAT DOOR ! It's cold outside !
Danny.
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NigG (#380),
An interesting picture indeed - but I was curious to see that the VV shown had no visible armament poking about from the back. I never knew anything about the anti-submarine patrols, but I suppose the rear guns were unnecessary, as the possibility of a Japanese interception was nil, and taking out 400lb of weight (2x 0.303 plus ammo, ammo tanks and mountings) can only be a good idea.
A surprising thing is that the standard RAF roundels had not been replaced by the blue and white ones, but January '43 was early days (a Google/Wiki search tells me that the South East Asia Air Command was only set up in the August of that year). Yet I'm sure we went to war in the May wearing blue/whites.
Did your Dad say anything about the tactics to be used if a submarine were spotted on one of those sweeps ? (yes, I know I should know, for 110 had been doing them from Karachi before they went to Madhaiganj where I joined them just after Christmas '42. I should have asked then, but had other things on my mind).
They would have had to be sure that any submarine they found on the surface (did they ever find any ?) was not "one of ours" (as far as I'm concerned, if you've seen one submarine, you've seen 'em all). You can't do that from 10-12,000 ft, so they would have to hunt low, say 2-3,000. Supposing you found an enemy one, what then ? The 0.300s in the wings could do a sub no harm, your bombs would have to be fused "instantaneous", or with "rods", as dropped low level, they'd probably bounce off the sub casing in the very unlikely case of a direct hit. And which would be better, to drop them one at a time (the switchgear allowed that) in four separate attacks, or all four in one go ? (bearing in mind that the sub would crash-dive and not be a target for long).
I reckon Vizag - Cholaveram about 450 miles "as the crow flies", but of course the East Coast main rail line would follow the curve of the coast. Stops would be frequent, so the time-table would allow a succesful rendevous to be arranged. Don't know Vizag, but Cholaveram was a very pleasant place. It was really a northern suburb of Madras, close enough to the sea to have a nice breeze and not too hot in summer. I spent the first three months of '45 on a Calibration Flight there, and thought I would be going home in the autumn "trooping season". But Fate and the "exigencies of the service" dictated otherwise.
Danny.
An interesting picture indeed - but I was curious to see that the VV shown had no visible armament poking about from the back. I never knew anything about the anti-submarine patrols, but I suppose the rear guns were unnecessary, as the possibility of a Japanese interception was nil, and taking out 400lb of weight (2x 0.303 plus ammo, ammo tanks and mountings) can only be a good idea.
A surprising thing is that the standard RAF roundels had not been replaced by the blue and white ones, but January '43 was early days (a Google/Wiki search tells me that the South East Asia Air Command was only set up in the August of that year). Yet I'm sure we went to war in the May wearing blue/whites.
Did your Dad say anything about the tactics to be used if a submarine were spotted on one of those sweeps ? (yes, I know I should know, for 110 had been doing them from Karachi before they went to Madhaiganj where I joined them just after Christmas '42. I should have asked then, but had other things on my mind).
They would have had to be sure that any submarine they found on the surface (did they ever find any ?) was not "one of ours" (as far as I'm concerned, if you've seen one submarine, you've seen 'em all). You can't do that from 10-12,000 ft, so they would have to hunt low, say 2-3,000. Supposing you found an enemy one, what then ? The 0.300s in the wings could do a sub no harm, your bombs would have to be fused "instantaneous", or with "rods", as dropped low level, they'd probably bounce off the sub casing in the very unlikely case of a direct hit. And which would be better, to drop them one at a time (the switchgear allowed that) in four separate attacks, or all four in one go ? (bearing in mind that the sub would crash-dive and not be a target for long).
I reckon Vizag - Cholaveram about 450 miles "as the crow flies", but of course the East Coast main rail line would follow the curve of the coast. Stops would be frequent, so the time-table would allow a succesful rendevous to be arranged. Don't know Vizag, but Cholaveram was a very pleasant place. It was really a northern suburb of Madras, close enough to the sea to have a nice breeze and not too hot in summer. I spent the first three months of '45 on a Calibration Flight there, and thought I would be going home in the autumn "trooping season". But Fate and the "exigencies of the service" dictated otherwise.
Danny.
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Danny (...SO excited that you're back!! 
)
Ah... now you have got me scurrying around! I'm not sure about the absence of the rear guns in the photo. But I seem to remember reading, possibly on the back of a photo, about an aircraft being without them. The squadron was about to hand-over the Mk.1 Vengeances and receive Mk.IIs... and the flight was being made as part of the transfer down to Cholavaram, so I don't know if that might have accounted for their absence. Certainly when they moved down to Ceylon, in anticipation of a Japanese naval attack, the guns were in situ (of course).
I have been more successful with checks about 84 conducting anti-submarine patrols when they were in Ceylon. In short... they weren't! Neither the Squadron history, 'Scorpions Sting', nor Peter Smith's 'Vengeance' refer to such activities (though, yes I recall Smith referring to such patrols by other squadron(s) off the Arakan coast). Smith does give an interesting description of 84's activities in Ceylon. Essentially it was honing their dive bombing skills, either with live bombs on an unfortunate rock off the shore of Colombo, or dummy dives on Naval warships, giving the ships company a useful and spectacular taste of what it might be like to have a force of Jap aircraft diving at them, the ships zig-zagging in evasive action. The other dummy targets were ground-based ones like Colombo harbour. Flt Lt Hawke recalled that he thought on that particular 'attack' that his wireless set was burning-out, only to realise that it was the smoke from a harbour chimney that was filling his nostrils! (p.105-6 in 'Vengeance'... I know you have it in your possession, Danny.) Arthur's log book also confirms the period of practice attacks and honing of personal skills... quite a few of the crews being 'new on type'. Low level flying was also a prominent feature of training.
After three months of that, the Jap naval force hadn't materialised as expected and Arthur was ready to move on. The opportunity to put his case came when they had a visit from the Deputy AOC SEAC, AM Garrard and AVM Lees, AOC Ceylon...
Arthur on the left, looking very youthful! They had made their visit to help sort problems, and in that vein, Arthur put it to AM Garrard that if the Japanese threat was no longer considered to be imminent, would it be possible for 84 Sqn to head north into battle, rather than continue with yet more training and swimming. Two months later the Squadron had moved up to the Army training area at Ranchi and was in training with the 14th Army, prior to the big push into Burma. By that time, word had got out that the Vengeance was a formidable aircraft well-suited to close air support of ground troops and the soldiers were very keen to learn how to employ it operationally.
So 84 didn't develop tactics for submarine attack in so far as records show. But for the destruction of enemy submarines, Danny, wouldn't the weapon of choice have been depth charges? And if so, wouldn't that have been outside the capabilities of the Vengeance?
)Ah... now you have got me scurrying around! I'm not sure about the absence of the rear guns in the photo. But I seem to remember reading, possibly on the back of a photo, about an aircraft being without them. The squadron was about to hand-over the Mk.1 Vengeances and receive Mk.IIs... and the flight was being made as part of the transfer down to Cholavaram, so I don't know if that might have accounted for their absence. Certainly when they moved down to Ceylon, in anticipation of a Japanese naval attack, the guns were in situ (of course).
I have been more successful with checks about 84 conducting anti-submarine patrols when they were in Ceylon. In short... they weren't! Neither the Squadron history, 'Scorpions Sting', nor Peter Smith's 'Vengeance' refer to such activities (though, yes I recall Smith referring to such patrols by other squadron(s) off the Arakan coast). Smith does give an interesting description of 84's activities in Ceylon. Essentially it was honing their dive bombing skills, either with live bombs on an unfortunate rock off the shore of Colombo, or dummy dives on Naval warships, giving the ships company a useful and spectacular taste of what it might be like to have a force of Jap aircraft diving at them, the ships zig-zagging in evasive action. The other dummy targets were ground-based ones like Colombo harbour. Flt Lt Hawke recalled that he thought on that particular 'attack' that his wireless set was burning-out, only to realise that it was the smoke from a harbour chimney that was filling his nostrils! (p.105-6 in 'Vengeance'... I know you have it in your possession, Danny.) Arthur's log book also confirms the period of practice attacks and honing of personal skills... quite a few of the crews being 'new on type'. Low level flying was also a prominent feature of training.
After three months of that, the Jap naval force hadn't materialised as expected and Arthur was ready to move on. The opportunity to put his case came when they had a visit from the Deputy AOC SEAC, AM Garrard and AVM Lees, AOC Ceylon...
Arthur on the left, looking very youthful! They had made their visit to help sort problems, and in that vein, Arthur put it to AM Garrard that if the Japanese threat was no longer considered to be imminent, would it be possible for 84 Sqn to head north into battle, rather than continue with yet more training and swimming. Two months later the Squadron had moved up to the Army training area at Ranchi and was in training with the 14th Army, prior to the big push into Burma. By that time, word had got out that the Vengeance was a formidable aircraft well-suited to close air support of ground troops and the soldiers were very keen to learn how to employ it operationally.
So 84 didn't develop tactics for submarine attack in so far as records show. But for the destruction of enemy submarines, Danny, wouldn't the weapon of choice have been depth charges? And if so, wouldn't that have been outside the capabilities of the Vengeance?
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Talk of Many Things....
NigG (#389),
Rather as I suspected - they were no more than simple reconnaissance sweeps (same with 110 at Karachi). I would think that it was a case of: "We've got these new aircraft. We've got to do something with them. This is something. Let's do it !.
With all due respect, why waste real bombs on an offshore rock (we were short of them in the Arakan in May '43 - or at least it was a case of deliveries "just in time"). Why not fit practice bomb racks (available), find a land range where practice bomb hits could be accurately plotted, and really learn dive bombing ?
Good fun for everyone concerned, but of little training value (for us) IMHO. But it enables me to raise a question which has always stuck at at the back of my mind: how much time would a ship have to "dodge" a dive bomb ? We know that a VV would be at terminal velocity of some 300 mph on bomb release at a true 3,000 ft agl. If the bomb continued at that speed (400 ft/sec), it would hit in about 7 seconds. But, far more streamlined than the brick-like VV, the bomb would accelerate more under "G" (the old 32ft/sec/sec). I've long forgotten any differential calculus I ever learned....... Anybody ? (assume air resistance plays no further part).
Let's guess five seconds. How far can you turn a large ship in that time ? At Midway all four big Jap fleet carriers were hit (three fatally) in less than 20 minutes (I've read a figure of 7½ minutes) by a squadron of Douglas "Dauntless" (A-20).
At 30,000 ft, 30 miles out in the North Sea, I could smell the Teesside steelworks in a Vampire (people always blamed the pong on ICI !).
Not "By that time". The VV couldn't even find the Japs in the field in the fluid fighting of '42/'43, which meant that we'd to go down to Akyab (miles from the land battle) for targets.
Next year all was different, the Army were pushing the Jap back south in the Arakan, he adopted the policy of digging-in at strongpoints to delay our advance, the VV came into its own as a bunker-buster, the Army was delighted with us and the plaudits flooded in. And the next year ? They pulled us out of the line when we could easily have done another dry season before Japan threw in the towel (we couldn't be seen to be successful, you see - it wasn't in accord with Official Policy).
No reason why not. From Wiki I learn that the things were in the 5-600 lb range; Sunderlands and Catalinas used to carry them on ordinary 500 lb racks. Even if they were too fat to fit in our bomb bays, 500 lbs had been tried on the VV wing (the aircraft could barely get off the ground with a 2,000 lb load, but that's another matter !)
Danny.
...with checks about 84 conducting anti-submarine patrols when they were in Ceylon. In short... they weren't!...
...honing their dive bombing skills, either with live bombs on an unfortunate rock off the shore of Colombo,,,
...or dummy dives on Naval warships...
Let's guess five seconds. How far can you turn a large ship in that time ? At Midway all four big Jap fleet carriers were hit (three fatally) in less than 20 minutes (I've read a figure of 7½ minutes) by a squadron of Douglas "Dauntless" (A-20).
...it was the smoke from a harbour chimney that was filling his nostrils! (p.105-6 in 'Vengeance' ...
... By that time, word had got out that the Vengeance was a formidable aircraft well-suited to close air support of ground troops and the soldiers were very keen to learn how to employ it operationally...
Next year all was different, the Army were pushing the Jap back south in the Arakan, he adopted the policy of digging-in at strongpoints to delay our advance, the VV came into its own as a bunker-buster, the Army was delighted with us and the plaudits flooded in. And the next year ? They pulled us out of the line when we could easily have done another dry season before Japan threw in the towel (we couldn't be seen to be successful, you see - it wasn't in accord with Official Policy).
... But for the destruction of enemy submarines, Danny, wouldn't the weapon of choice have been depth charges? And if so, wouldn't that have been outside the capabilities of the Vengeance?...
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 9th Sep 2016 at 14:19. Reason: Spelling
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Danny
Thanks for the review and your interesting thoughts. You've spurred me to do a bit more checking.
Yup... you're right about the bombing... practice bombs were employed. According to Arthur's log, mostly 11.5 lb and some 20 lb, very rarely full-weight weapons. Also checking through the log, no sign of 'reconnaissance sweeps', as you speculated. Hold on to your hat (there was very little faffing-about)... here's a selection of Arthur's log book entries from:
May/June '43
Dambulla and return. Formation low-level dummy attack; ARP Exercise.
Low-level local flying
Ramrod I Low-level 'attack' on Puttalam aerodrome by 11 Vengeances escorted by 30 (F) Sqdn
Dives 10,000' to sea level
Formation 'fly-past' over Queen's House Colombo - United Nations Day
Exercise 'Fog' (RAF and Southern Army manouvres). 'Raid' on St Thomas Mount
Low-level 'attack' on defile to block 'Jap' advance. Very successful.
Low-level 'attack' on bridge at Chaudepaulle
'Raid' on Tirravallur aerodrome. 'Jap' aircraft dive attack from 12,000'
July/August '43:
2x 11.5lb dive from 10000' One direct hit, one 10 yds error on target.
[With a Major in the back:] Full war-load test 1500lb bombs 5000 rds .303. 6 guns
Bombing 2 x 250lb 50 yds line error. Gongala rock bombing 2x 11.5lb LL
Dive attack and ground strafing Colombo Harbour and oil refineries
Exercise Cax Attack by 6 VVs on HMS Newcastle.
Exercise Thunderbox. Attack on HMS Scout
Bombing dive 10,000' Direct hit on Gongala rock 1x 11.5lb bomb
Bombing low level 1,000' 2x 11.5lb One direct hit, one 30 yds Front and rear guns firing practice.
In September they were working with the Army at Ranchi, trialing target-indication, bombing pill boxes, and more use of practice bombs, then December with the Chindits doing target indication trails with smoke, and live bombing demonstration: 6 aircraft with 500lb bombs. In February '44 they moved to Kumbhirgram and began ops against the Japanese, supporting both the 14th Army and the Chindits.
Interesting what you say about Naval ships zig-zagging and how pointless that would be. In truth, that was my speculation that they did this! Maybe they didn't as a defence against air attack... maybe just for submarines where there was a decent chance of dodging a torpedo or spoiling an aim.
Again you've caught me out! I wrote:
... By that time, word had got out that the Vengeance was a formidable aircraft well-suited to close air support of ground troops and the soldiers were very keen to learn how to employ it operationally...
You replied: Not "By that time". The VV couldn't even find the Japs in the field in the fluid fighting of '42/'43, which meant that we'd to go down to Akyab (miles from the land battle) for targets.
What Arthur actually wrote was:
[At Ranchi, Sep '43] ..a stream of senior Army officers asked to visit and talk about the RAF's new dive-bomber. Many had experienced the Stuka in Europe...The officers of 15 Corps were very keen to see the results of our bombing and whether or not 84 Squadron was as good as they claimed to be. In the past they had not been well supported by the RAF and had little faith in our abilities. This was due to a shortage of suitable aircraft at the time and the wrong use of the types of aircraft available. Here at last was an aircraft which the RAF claimed was ideal for the close support of the Army.
He went on to say that they demonstrated the effectiveness of the Vengeance on a target of bunkers built by the Army, and they were suitable impressed.
Regarding your statement that Vengeances weren't used in 1945 because 'we couldn't be seen to be successful, you see - it wasn't in accord with Official Policy'. This isn't really so is it? All the Vengeance squadrons had been scheduled to re-equip with the Mosquito, which presumably, when the decision was made, was thought to be more effective than the Vengeance. Certainly it was, where there was low-level cloud that precluded the Vengeance's highly accurate vertical dive.
Thanks for the review and your interesting thoughts. You've spurred me to do a bit more checking.
Yup... you're right about the bombing... practice bombs were employed. According to Arthur's log, mostly 11.5 lb and some 20 lb, very rarely full-weight weapons. Also checking through the log, no sign of 'reconnaissance sweeps', as you speculated. Hold on to your hat (there was very little faffing-about)... here's a selection of Arthur's log book entries from:
May/June '43
Dambulla and return. Formation low-level dummy attack; ARP Exercise.
Low-level local flying
Ramrod I Low-level 'attack' on Puttalam aerodrome by 11 Vengeances escorted by 30 (F) Sqdn
Dives 10,000' to sea level
Formation 'fly-past' over Queen's House Colombo - United Nations Day
Exercise 'Fog' (RAF and Southern Army manouvres). 'Raid' on St Thomas Mount
Low-level 'attack' on defile to block 'Jap' advance. Very successful.
Low-level 'attack' on bridge at Chaudepaulle
'Raid' on Tirravallur aerodrome. 'Jap' aircraft dive attack from 12,000'
July/August '43:
2x 11.5lb dive from 10000' One direct hit, one 10 yds error on target.
[With a Major in the back:] Full war-load test 1500lb bombs 5000 rds .303. 6 guns
Bombing 2 x 250lb 50 yds line error. Gongala rock bombing 2x 11.5lb LL
Dive attack and ground strafing Colombo Harbour and oil refineries
Exercise Cax Attack by 6 VVs on HMS Newcastle.
Exercise Thunderbox. Attack on HMS Scout
Bombing dive 10,000' Direct hit on Gongala rock 1x 11.5lb bomb
Bombing low level 1,000' 2x 11.5lb One direct hit, one 30 yds Front and rear guns firing practice.
In September they were working with the Army at Ranchi, trialing target-indication, bombing pill boxes, and more use of practice bombs, then December with the Chindits doing target indication trails with smoke, and live bombing demonstration: 6 aircraft with 500lb bombs. In February '44 they moved to Kumbhirgram and began ops against the Japanese, supporting both the 14th Army and the Chindits.
Interesting what you say about Naval ships zig-zagging and how pointless that would be. In truth, that was my speculation that they did this! Maybe they didn't as a defence against air attack... maybe just for submarines where there was a decent chance of dodging a torpedo or spoiling an aim.
Again you've caught me out! I wrote:
... By that time, word had got out that the Vengeance was a formidable aircraft well-suited to close air support of ground troops and the soldiers were very keen to learn how to employ it operationally...
You replied: Not "By that time". The VV couldn't even find the Japs in the field in the fluid fighting of '42/'43, which meant that we'd to go down to Akyab (miles from the land battle) for targets.
What Arthur actually wrote was:
[At Ranchi, Sep '43] ..a stream of senior Army officers asked to visit and talk about the RAF's new dive-bomber. Many had experienced the Stuka in Europe...The officers of 15 Corps were very keen to see the results of our bombing and whether or not 84 Squadron was as good as they claimed to be. In the past they had not been well supported by the RAF and had little faith in our abilities. This was due to a shortage of suitable aircraft at the time and the wrong use of the types of aircraft available. Here at last was an aircraft which the RAF claimed was ideal for the close support of the Army.
He went on to say that they demonstrated the effectiveness of the Vengeance on a target of bunkers built by the Army, and they were suitable impressed.
Regarding your statement that Vengeances weren't used in 1945 because 'we couldn't be seen to be successful, you see - it wasn't in accord with Official Policy'. This isn't really so is it? All the Vengeance squadrons had been scheduled to re-equip with the Mosquito, which presumably, when the decision was made, was thought to be more effective than the Vengeance. Certainly it was, where there was low-level cloud that precluded the Vengeance's highly accurate vertical dive.
Last edited by NigG; 10th Sep 2016 at 21:33.
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What might have been.
NigG (#391),
The pic is also in Peter C Smith's "Vengeance!" (p.111), captioned as : "over Mount Lavinia hotel and railway station in Northen Ceylon". Looks a nice place for a weekend ! - but sounds pricey. (Google/TravelBag has all the details, says it is overlooking Columbo).
Again many references in the log to 'low-level attacks'. Never did any myself, and have made plain here my opinion of the idea. what the VV did best was what it was built for: high level, ideally vertical dives from 10-12,000 ft. That way you got the famed VV accuracy.
The standard practice (11½ lb) rack carried 4 smoke practice bombs; as it only took some 15 mins to climb up after each dive, the exercise fitted neatly into an hour on range. No sense in just carrying only one. How big was this Gongala rock, anyway ?
They did, in fact, putting the helm hard over as soon as the bomber started its attack. But as you put your yellow line on the ship (I would imagine) and kept it there during the dive, the ship would still only have a few seconds to move from your aiming point (has anyone done the math, far too hard for me ?) The Jap carriers at Midway would certainly have been turning as fast as they could, but that did not save them.
It was "horses for courses". And this misses the point that the Mosquitoes which came out in the spring of '44 all brought their own fully trained crews with them. The old Vengeance crews had a better claim to the squadron names and numbers (they still included members of the 'old guard', who'd flown the Blenheims in 4 Group in '42) than these parvenues.
Why not form four new squadrons for the newcomers, but let the VVs and their crews (who still had a year of their 'tours' to serve) carry on as they were for that last dry season ? The 14th Army had the Japs on the run in Burma, ideal conditions for a bunker-buster, and we could have done more good work to help the Army. But for some reason it was not to be......We were pulled out at the onset of the '44 monsoon, aircraft and crews frittered away on odd jobs.
Danny.
The pic is also in Peter C Smith's "Vengeance!" (p.111), captioned as : "over Mount Lavinia hotel and railway station in Northen Ceylon". Looks a nice place for a weekend ! - but sounds pricey. (Google/TravelBag has all the details, says it is overlooking Columbo).
Again many references in the log to 'low-level attacks'. Never did any myself, and have made plain here my opinion of the idea. what the VV did best was what it was built for: high level, ideally vertical dives from 10-12,000 ft. That way you got the famed VV accuracy.
The standard practice (11½ lb) rack carried 4 smoke practice bombs; as it only took some 15 mins to climb up after each dive, the exercise fitted neatly into an hour on range. No sense in just carrying only one. How big was this Gongala rock, anyway ?
...Naval ships zig-zagging and how pointless that would be. In truth, that was my speculation that they did this!...
...This isn't really so is it? All the Vengeance squadrons had been scheduled to re-equip with the Mosquito, which presumably, when the decision was made, was thought to be more effective than the Vengeance...
Why not form four new squadrons for the newcomers, but let the VVs and their crews (who still had a year of their 'tours' to serve) carry on as they were for that last dry season ? The 14th Army had the Japs on the run in Burma, ideal conditions for a bunker-buster, and we could have done more good work to help the Army. But for some reason it was not to be......We were pulled out at the onset of the '44 monsoon, aircraft and crews frittered away on odd jobs.
Danny.
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Danny... absolutely. It seems to have been a bad decision to replace the Vengeances with Mosquitoes. I think some squadrons, like 110 got back into the fight in 1945, at the end of the Burma campaign, but 84 Sqdn, who came out of Burma a couple of months after the other Vengeance Sqdns were withdrawn to re-equip, failed to get back to the fight. Here's why...
July 1944: Withdrew from action in Burma to Samungli, Quetta.
September: CO (Arthur) posted. Temporary CO took over. Sqdn strength reduced by half.
October: all Vengeances withdrawn and Sqdn moved to Yelahanka, Bangalore, on the opposite side of India. Temporary CO replaced by new CO.
November: new CO replaced by another, the now 'old CO' becoming a Flight Commander. Mosquito conversion staff arrived, but no Mosquitoes... used Oxfords. Mosquitoes held up by technical failures... fresh plan was to re-equip with Vengeance IIIs and get back into action.
December: Only five Vengeances were on strength, brought out from storage, due to manufacturing faults with the self-sealing fuel tanks of newly shipped aircraft, so the original plan to convert to Mosquitoes was to resume.
February 1945: First 'Mossie' arrived. Three aircraft lost to flying accidents.
April: Conversion and initial training on the Mosquito completed and 16 aircraft on strength. Sqdn moved to Chiharra, Calcutta, to await move forward to the battle. Fighter affiliation exercises conducted.
May: plan to move to Chakulia postponed, due to shortage of transport. CO posted.
June: More losses due to flying accidents. Further three aircraft condemned due to deterioration of wing surfaces... the wooden Mosquito was not faring well in tropical conditions. Sqdn strength down to nine aircraft. New CO arrived. (Wg Cdr Constable-Maxwell managed to prevent the Sqdn being disbanded, through a contact in the Air Council.) Sqdn moved to St Thomas Mount, Madras, South India. CO's insistence on practice dive-bombing the Mosquito wasn't liked as there were no dive brakes on the aircraft, and one crew fatality followed.
July: Five crews posted to 45 Sqdn.
August: Atom bombs dropped and Japan surrendered.
Conversion to the Mosquito evidently caused a massive 'faff'. Had the Vengeances been kept on strength in 84 Sqdn, they would have been back in action in October 1944, when the monsoon cleared. That would have facilitated a further eight months of fighting in support of the 14th Army until July '45, when the monsoon returned. The one 'upside' of course, was that the fight to reconquer Burma was, in the final analysis, made redundant by the dropping of the Atom bombs.
It's regrettable that the Americans hadn't been able to develop the Atom Bomb earlier. Had they done so, the Vengeance Sqdns and everybody else could have relaxed in the shade with nimbu parnies, instead of risking their necks. But then a remarkable chapter in the history of the RAF would never have been written.
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Danny, you asked how big is Gongala Rock, the practice target that 84 used. Have searched diligently without definite success. Only 'rock' I could find locally was this. Difficult to see past the foreground... but do your best!
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Hindsight - what would we do without it ?
NigG (#393),
How many times does your Father's postings dovetail in with mine ! (to avoid tedious repetition, look up "Pilot's Brevet" from p.150 #2993 and a whole host of succeeding Posts).
For 8 (IAF) went up to Samungli, too, at much the same time. Curiously, I've no recollection of our sharing the airfield with 84, bút that is not evidence, probably just a case of a hole in my memory (among many more !)
What a pity we didn't - but then again, I would never have had my year in my first (and last !) Command in the RAF, and would not have enjoyed my "cherry on the cake", described in "Military life on the Malabar Coast of India in WWII" Thread (which must still be gathering dust far back in "Military Aviation").
Lovely pic of the "Wooden Wonder". Only flew a few hours in them as a passenger, but tremendously impressed.
Will return to your Post....Goodnight now,
Danny.
How many times does your Father's postings dovetail in with mine ! (to avoid tedious repetition, look up "Pilot's Brevet" from p.150 #2993 and a whole host of succeeding Posts).
For 8 (IAF) went up to Samungli, too, at much the same time. Curiously, I've no recollection of our sharing the airfield with 84, bút that is not evidence, probably just a case of a hole in my memory (among many more !)
...fresh plan was to re-equip with Vengeance IIIs and get back into action...
Lovely pic of the "Wooden Wonder". Only flew a few hours in them as a passenger, but tremendously impressed.
Will return to your Post....Goodnight now,
Danny.
..... described in "Military life on the Malabar Coast of India in WWII" Thread (which must still be gathering dust far back in "Military Aviation"). - Danny
Oh no it's not...
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ndia-wwii.html
Jack
Oh no it's not...
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ndia-wwii.html
Jack
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Exeunt Omnes.
NigG (#381 revisited)
These can only have been for the conversion of the VV pilots (who we almost all s/e). And where would have been the sense in converting these, who had less than a year of their "tours" left ? The new Mosquito pilots, who had a full tour ahead of them, were already fully trained (fresh out of OTU ?) and would not need Oxfords.
Curiously, the Oxford was still in use as late as 1964 as a lead-in to the Meteor, as it had been in the early fifties (no wonder the poor little Meteor studes [and their instructors] died like flies in those years).
You can say that again ! They fell to bits, often in mid air, starting in the April by killing Wg Cdr Stumm, new CO of 45 and his crewman, and going on from there, until the rot was stopped at the end of the year.
The old Mks. I and II (which had flown all the 'ops' in 1943-44 dry seasons) were all clapped-out. The Mk. III (which was the same aeroplane) was never in action AFAIK.
Danny was roped in to instruct the new boys at Yelahanka - but the policy was reversed the very day I arrived !
The self-sealing tank problem goes back to the very beginning, Peter C. Smith refers to it early on in his "Vengeance!" The "original plan" was resumed simply because they'd solved the glue problem in the Mossies, and for no other reason (we'd lived with the tank problem all the time).
Can't trace a Chiharra. Near Calcutta ? Knew the area well. Now for a while 8 (IAF) were at what we called Chaara, but that is about 100 miles SW of 'Cal'. Struck oil on Google/Wiki with:
The 'Bura' part simply means "Greater" - it is not really part of the name. The young Maharajah of Cooch Bihar was one of the better known of the men-about-town around the Calcutta night clubs, and something of a babe-magnet (so I was told).
Not far from Calcutta (Wiki map).
It's getting very late in the day (but we didn't know it then).
Leaving us all dressed up with nowhere to go !
My point exactly ! Ah, well......
Looks as if 84 never had a chance to strike a blow with their Mossies - time ran out.
.....................
(#394),
Tearing the eyes reluctantly from the distraction in the foreground, and in the absence of any idea of range, it is difficult to tell, but I would say that the Gongala "Rock"would be of a size difficult to miss in a VV (or anything else for that matter in daylight !)
Danny.
...November [1944]: Mosquito conversion staff arrived, but no Mosquitoes... used Oxfords...
Curiously, the Oxford was still in use as late as 1964 as a lead-in to the Meteor, as it had been in the early fifties (no wonder the poor little Meteor studes [and their instructors] died like flies in those years).
...Mosquitoes held up by technical failures...
...fresh plan was to re-equip with Vengeance IIIs and get back into action...
Danny was roped in to instruct the new boys at Yelahanka - but the policy was reversed the very day I arrived !
...December [1944]: Only five Vengeances were on strength....... due to manufacturing faults with the self-sealing fuel tanks of newly shipped aircraft, so the original plan to convert to Mosquitoes was to resume...
...April [1945]: Conversion and initial training on the Mosquito completed and 16 aircraft on strength. Sqdn moved to Chiharra, Calcutta, to await move forward to the battle. Fighter affiliation exercises conducted...
...Bura Chara, India - Geotagged Places of Interest - LatLongWiki.com
www.latlongwiki.com/?l=26.459386&g...Bura%20Chara,%20India
12 Dec 2014 ... Geotagged Wikipedia and Wikivoyage Places around Bura Chara, India ... Cooch
Behar Airport; is located at Cooch Behar, West Bengal, India...
www.latlongwiki.com/?l=26.459386&g...Bura%20Chara,%20India
12 Dec 2014 ... Geotagged Wikipedia and Wikivoyage Places around Bura Chara, India ... Cooch
Behar Airport; is located at Cooch Behar, West Bengal, India...
...May: plan to move to Chakulia postponed,...
Chakulia Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakul...;CachedSimilar
Chakulia Airport is an airport in India. It is located southwest of the city of Chakulia, a city and a ...... no scheduled commercial airline flights. In 2006, it was reported that the airport has been non-operational since it served during World War II....
Chakulia Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakul...;CachedSimilar
Chakulia Airport is an airport in India. It is located southwest of the city of Chakulia, a city and a ...... no scheduled commercial airline flights. In 2006, it was reported that the airport has been non-operational since it served during World War II....
...February 1945: First 'Mossie' arrived...
...August: Atom bombs dropped and Japan surrendered...
...Conversion to the Mosquito evidently caused a massive 'faff'. Had the Vengeances been kept on strength in 84 Sqdn, they would have been back in action in October 1944, when the monsoon cleared. That would have facilitated a further eight months of fighting in support of the 14th Army until July '45, when the monsoon returned. The one 'upside' of course...
Looks as if 84 never had a chance to strike a blow with their Mossies - time ran out.
.....................
(#394),
Tearing the eyes reluctantly from the distraction in the foreground, and in the absence of any idea of range, it is difficult to tell, but I would say that the Gongala "Rock"would be of a size difficult to miss in a VV (or anything else for that matter in daylight !)
Danny.
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Bother! Just lost my post... so to re-write in short, Danny... thanks for your comments. The airstrip that 84 went to was 'Chharra', not 'Chiharra'... misread it... cheap reading glasses, not my eyes. So I guess it was the 'Chaara' that you knew of.
Yes I have my doubts about that being Gongala rock... magnificent view though that photo presents. I think what's in the photo would more properly be called an 'island' rather than a 'rock'. However, despite the hundreds of online pictures of Colombo's coastline, I could spot no offshore 'rock'. Possibly there was one... as I say...these damned glasses.
To move on.. and to continue from my post 374 on the previous page, some more of Arthur's photos of 84 Squadron in the Western Desert, where they were participating in Operation Crusader in 1941, against the Italians and the Afrika Korps.
Below: Crews debriefing outside the Ops Room at LG 75, on return from an operation.
Below: the crewroom dugout.. CO Wg Cdr Boyce in the foreground on the left.
Below: one of many attacks on the defences at Bardia
Below: 84 were withdrawn from the desert in order to re-equip with new Blenheim IVs in Egypt and then fly down to Sumatra, in the Far East, to help counter the Japanese offensive. This shot was taken at Sharjah, Iran, during an overnight stop on that nine-leg journey. Only 18 out of 24 aircraft completed the journey. Within a month, all aircraft had been lost either to accidents or to the Japanese. A haunting photograph.
Yes I have my doubts about that being Gongala rock... magnificent view though that photo presents. I think what's in the photo would more properly be called an 'island' rather than a 'rock'. However, despite the hundreds of online pictures of Colombo's coastline, I could spot no offshore 'rock'. Possibly there was one... as I say...these damned glasses.
To move on.. and to continue from my post 374 on the previous page, some more of Arthur's photos of 84 Squadron in the Western Desert, where they were participating in Operation Crusader in 1941, against the Italians and the Afrika Korps.
Below: Crews debriefing outside the Ops Room at LG 75, on return from an operation.
Below: the crewroom dugout.. CO Wg Cdr Boyce in the foreground on the left.
Below: one of many attacks on the defences at Bardia
Below: 84 were withdrawn from the desert in order to re-equip with new Blenheim IVs in Egypt and then fly down to Sumatra, in the Far East, to help counter the Japanese offensive. This shot was taken at Sharjah, Iran, during an overnight stop on that nine-leg journey. Only 18 out of 24 aircraft completed the journey. Within a month, all aircraft had been lost either to accidents or to the Japanese. A haunting photograph.
Last edited by NigG; 16th Sep 2016 at 21:49.
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Wg Cdr Boyce, referred to in the photo above, handed over the command of 84 Squadron to Wg Cdr Jeudwine. Jeudwine took the Squadron out to Sumatra and led the action against the Japanese. (He was also the one who escaped from Java to Australia by lifeboat under sail.. see page 6, post 106, for the remarkable story.)
Arthur corresponded with Boyce after the war. Here's one of Boyce's letters, which refers to Jeudwine:
Nov.1945 From, now Gp Capt(?) Clayton Boyce, HQ 8 Group, RAF Huntingdon.
My dear Gill,
Thank you so much for your letter. Yes it was very bad luck. Poor old Jeudwine getting the chop. He had a Station in this Group, you know. I’m afraid he was split-arsing in a Typhoon and stalled upside down too low to recover. I went to his funeral. Very sad business.
Jeudwine told me just before he was killed that Johnny Taylor was back safe and sound. [from being a prisoner of war] Also Keble White which rather amazed me. I should have thought the Japs would almost certainly have bumped him off. I always felt like it myself. [He mentions others from 84 Sqn] I should very much like to see old Ashmole again but don’t know when I shall be able to get up to London. [Ashmole had been his Adjutant, and was now restoring the bomb-damaged British Museum]
This Group is rapidly disbanding and I have been posted to Upwood as Station Commander, losing my acting rank the day after tomorrow. However I cannot complain as it has been very good while it lasted. A very nice pre-war built up Station housing 2 Mosquito Squadrons.
I’m sorry to hear that you have been caught up in the toils of Bob House. [Air Ministry] It’s always been my dread to get posted there. I shouldn’t despair too much about the P.C. [permanent Commission that Arthur had applied for, and was long in coming] They can only push out very limited numbers at a time and your name may well turn up in due course. I can’t think how they can have missed out on an ex-CO of 84 so long anyway…
Well, Gill, when they let you get an aeroplane, fly up to Upwood and have lunch with me and we’ll do a lot of mutual line shooting and beer swilling.
Yours ever Clayton Boyce.
(Note: The cause of Jeudwine's accident isn't clear, but it was on his first day of flying a Typhoon. It seems that he assumed it would loop like a Hurricane, but in fact it needed a lot more clearance, and at the bottom of his loop the aircraft hit the ground, upside down.)
Hawker Typhoon 1B 1943
Arthur corresponded with Boyce after the war. Here's one of Boyce's letters, which refers to Jeudwine:
Nov.1945 From, now Gp Capt(?) Clayton Boyce, HQ 8 Group, RAF Huntingdon.
My dear Gill,
Thank you so much for your letter. Yes it was very bad luck. Poor old Jeudwine getting the chop. He had a Station in this Group, you know. I’m afraid he was split-arsing in a Typhoon and stalled upside down too low to recover. I went to his funeral. Very sad business.
Jeudwine told me just before he was killed that Johnny Taylor was back safe and sound. [from being a prisoner of war] Also Keble White which rather amazed me. I should have thought the Japs would almost certainly have bumped him off. I always felt like it myself. [He mentions others from 84 Sqn] I should very much like to see old Ashmole again but don’t know when I shall be able to get up to London. [Ashmole had been his Adjutant, and was now restoring the bomb-damaged British Museum]
This Group is rapidly disbanding and I have been posted to Upwood as Station Commander, losing my acting rank the day after tomorrow. However I cannot complain as it has been very good while it lasted. A very nice pre-war built up Station housing 2 Mosquito Squadrons.
I’m sorry to hear that you have been caught up in the toils of Bob House. [Air Ministry] It’s always been my dread to get posted there. I shouldn’t despair too much about the P.C. [permanent Commission that Arthur had applied for, and was long in coming] They can only push out very limited numbers at a time and your name may well turn up in due course. I can’t think how they can have missed out on an ex-CO of 84 so long anyway…
Well, Gill, when they let you get an aeroplane, fly up to Upwood and have lunch with me and we’ll do a lot of mutual line shooting and beer swilling.
Yours ever Clayton Boyce.
(Note: The cause of Jeudwine's accident isn't clear, but it was on his first day of flying a Typhoon. It seems that he assumed it would loop like a Hurricane, but in fact it needed a lot more clearance, and at the bottom of his loop the aircraft hit the ground, upside down.)
Hawker Typhoon 1B 1943
Last edited by NigG; 17th Sep 2016 at 08:19.
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NigG (your #398),
Did you really say just "Bother"? Remarkable self-control !
If, as I assume, you were composing on PPRuNepad, you are in good company. Nearly everybody here has been caught at one time or another by the resident malevolent gremlin (and he usually waits till it's 99% complete before doing the dirty on you !)
Remedy: Draft somewhere else (I use Notepad), then copy/paste onto PPRuNepad, invite gremlin to do his worst.
Danny.
PS:
Interesting pics of the early N.African campaign - an old memory stirred, Google turned up for me: "BBC Home 'WW2 People's War' (Archived) this marching song composed by the Army in N.Africa:
♫...'Where do we go from here,
Now that we've got Bardia,
We've captured Buk-Buk,
And we've got Tobruk,
Where do we go from here ?'...♫
Well known tune (but can't recall its name - somebody may).
It refers [Wiki] to the recapture (3rd-5th January, 1941) of the Italian fortress of Bardia (N.Africa) by the 6th Division commanded by Major General Iven (sic) MacKay of the Australian Army. Result: (Casualties and losses):
(Allied)
130 killed
326 wounded[3]
(Italian)
1,703 killed
3,740 wounded
36,000 captured[4]
The victory at Bardia enabled the Allied forces to continue the advance into Libya and ultimately capture almost all of Cyrenaica. In turn this would lead to German intervention in the fighting in North Africa, changing the nature of the war in that theatre. [Wiki]
The Daily Mirror (I think) printed this parody (supposedly written by the retreating Italians):
"Where do we go from here
Now that we've lost Bardia ?
They've conquered Tobruk
And taken Buk-Buk
So where do we go from here ?"
Of course, all this is long ago, and we're all pals now......
D.
..Bother! Just lost my post...
If, as I assume, you were composing on PPRuNepad, you are in good company. Nearly everybody here has been caught at one time or another by the resident malevolent gremlin (and he usually waits till it's 99% complete before doing the dirty on you !)
Remedy: Draft somewhere else (I use Notepad), then copy/paste onto PPRuNepad, invite gremlin to do his worst.
Danny.
PS:
Interesting pics of the early N.African campaign - an old memory stirred, Google turned up for me: "BBC Home 'WW2 People's War' (Archived) this marching song composed by the Army in N.Africa:
♫...'Where do we go from here,
Now that we've got Bardia,
We've captured Buk-Buk,
And we've got Tobruk,
Where do we go from here ?'...♫
Well known tune (but can't recall its name - somebody may).
It refers [Wiki] to the recapture (3rd-5th January, 1941) of the Italian fortress of Bardia (N.Africa) by the 6th Division commanded by Major General Iven (sic) MacKay of the Australian Army. Result: (Casualties and losses):
(Allied)
130 killed
326 wounded[3]
(Italian)
1,703 killed
3,740 wounded
36,000 captured[4]
The victory at Bardia enabled the Allied forces to continue the advance into Libya and ultimately capture almost all of Cyrenaica. In turn this would lead to German intervention in the fighting in North Africa, changing the nature of the war in that theatre. [Wiki]
The Daily Mirror (I think) printed this parody (supposedly written by the retreating Italians):
"Where do we go from here
Now that we've lost Bardia ?
They've conquered Tobruk
And taken Buk-Buk
So where do we go from here ?"
Of course, all this is long ago, and we're all pals now......
D.