1v1 combat debrief
Most enjoyable debrief I ever had was from the only Skyhawk pilot to survive a 4 v 2 on 8 June 82. Only 10 years, 98 pints of scrumpy, 4 bottles of wine and one of port after the event. Now great friends!
Thread Starter
There back
Early morning West of the Malvern Hills, well 0900 Thurs 9th, entertained by an tail-chasing (cine weave?) session, cumulating in close range 1v1 at a respectably low altitude.
Lesson about reversal still to be learnt, but forgive me if this was a mistaken view of modern low speed scissors in a gun environment - too close for a short range missile.
Based on the wing platform, straight trailing edge, and highly swept tailplane, the aircraft were Mig 29 / variants. Also by the noise - wonderful, no stealth qualities there, as witnessed by the neighbours in nightdress and hair curlers muttering about the apple harvest.
Any squadrons visiting the U.K. at this time
Lesson about reversal still to be learnt, but forgive me if this was a mistaken view of modern low speed scissors in a gun environment - too close for a short range missile.
Based on the wing platform, straight trailing edge, and highly swept tailplane, the aircraft were Mig 29 / variants. Also by the noise - wonderful, no stealth qualities there, as witnessed by the neighbours in nightdress and hair curlers muttering about the apple harvest.
Any squadrons visiting the U.K. at this time
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Gentlemen, yes the two who disturbed the tranquility of the lands behind the Malvern Hills at 1615 today.
Apart from disrupting a quiet afternoon in the shed reshaping wood, the combat skills exhibited were woeful.
In a close-contact defensive guns environment get into the vertical before loosing all excess energy, and if you continue to turn don't get so slow that there are few options remaining.
You were too slow.
If there is any doubt that you have forced a fly through never reverse. Consider an early vertical, rolling, scissors manoeuvre as an alternative.
You reversed.
No wonder that you dived into an adjacent 'humbly' CB, and then continued a northerly tail chase around the bubbling clouds.
You will have to repeat the excersise as soon as possible, and consider dissimilar aircraft types for opposition.
With age comes weakening eyesight as might degraded recognition skills, but were you really flying Mig 29s?
Ahh WIWOL
Apart from disrupting a quiet afternoon in the shed reshaping wood, the combat skills exhibited were woeful.
In a close-contact defensive guns environment get into the vertical before loosing all excess energy, and if you continue to turn don't get so slow that there are few options remaining.
You were too slow.
If there is any doubt that you have forced a fly through never reverse. Consider an early vertical, rolling, scissors manoeuvre as an alternative.
You reversed.
No wonder that you dived into an adjacent 'humbly' CB, and then continued a northerly tail chase around the bubbling clouds.
You will have to repeat the excersise as soon as possible, and consider dissimilar aircraft types for opposition.
With age comes weakening eyesight as might degraded recognition skills, but were you really flying Mig 29s?
Ahh WIWOL
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Courtney Mil wrote:
Rather like those bull-$hitting ACM debriefs many of us suffered before the days of ACMI...
A pity we didn't have regular access in the UK as it would soon have sorted out the truth. I remember the snort of derision in the DDS cabin at Deci' from one Fg Off Nav at the ridiculous Fox2 claim made by one 'T*ny-the-p**f', who then tried to give him a hard time. But Jerry stood his ground and the DDS data proved him correct after something of a 'robust discussion'. "You guys run a pretty tough debrief", commented the Spams against whom we'd been doing our DACT.
Which is probably true, given the sickening "Gee, you guys were awesome" stuff we used to hear during 'CFM' debriefs at Incirlik.
Rather like those bull-$hitting ACM debriefs many of us suffered before the days of ACMI...
A pity we didn't have regular access in the UK as it would soon have sorted out the truth. I remember the snort of derision in the DDS cabin at Deci' from one Fg Off Nav at the ridiculous Fox2 claim made by one 'T*ny-the-p**f', who then tried to give him a hard time. But Jerry stood his ground and the DDS data proved him correct after something of a 'robust discussion'. "You guys run a pretty tough debrief", commented the Spams against whom we'd been doing our DACT.
Which is probably true, given the sickening "Gee, you guys were awesome" stuff we used to hear during 'CFM' debriefs at Incirlik.
I looked at the Cubic website.
Can ACMI reproduce a 3D type view of the fight on a TV monitor in the crew room afterwards for debriefs?
The views in the Cubic promo videos all seem to be 2D eye of god type view.
Can ACMI reproduce a 3D type view of the fight on a TV monitor in the crew room afterwards for debriefs?
The views in the Cubic promo videos all seem to be 2D eye of god type view.
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I can confirm that in the few ACMI debriefs I observed, I never heard anyone say "Gutsiest move I've ever seen". I can also confirm that, despite most intense desire, they did not involve Kelly McG. 
Last edited by Cows getting bigger; 10th Aug 2018 at 05:39.
...I am very embarrassed to say Cows, that was what made me ask the question...
But seriously, can ACMI show a 3D view similar to the Top Gun debrief graphics, where red air and blue air are shown in x, y and z axis - and 3D paths through space shown?
I imagine so - and assume it can rewind, fast forward and zoom as needed?
But seriously, can ACMI show a 3D view similar to the Top Gun debrief graphics, where red air and blue air are shown in x, y and z axis - and 3D paths through space shown?
I imagine so - and assume it can rewind, fast forward and zoom as needed?
Tartare
It would be fair to say that ACMI debriefs have moved on slightly since Top Gun.
The aforementioned RAIDS pods and similar varieties are useful for large exercises where you have dissimilar types.
I can’t tell you what the Typhoon system looks like (I haven’t seen it) but the Hawk T2 system records everything digitally on one cartridge. And I mean everything. With no need for a pod attached to the aircraft. Clearly it only records T2s though.
In the debrief facility you can display every HUD and MFD from each aircraft. You can then select any page that was or wasn’t displayed.
You can view fights in 3D and use any map or imagery as a background if needs be. You can even look from a cockpit view from any aircraft and pan around to see any angle.
It is so good and records so much the only problem is tempering your debrief so people don’t fall asleep.
US pilots are well versed at running good debriefs but UK pilots are also taught from an early stage how to manage an effective debrief as well.
I’m so glad things have moved on from drawing ribbons on the board. Just think of all the ink we save.
BV
The aforementioned RAIDS pods and similar varieties are useful for large exercises where you have dissimilar types.
I can’t tell you what the Typhoon system looks like (I haven’t seen it) but the Hawk T2 system records everything digitally on one cartridge. And I mean everything. With no need for a pod attached to the aircraft. Clearly it only records T2s though.
In the debrief facility you can display every HUD and MFD from each aircraft. You can then select any page that was or wasn’t displayed.
You can view fights in 3D and use any map or imagery as a background if needs be. You can even look from a cockpit view from any aircraft and pan around to see any angle.
It is so good and records so much the only problem is tempering your debrief so people don’t fall asleep.
US pilots are well versed at running good debriefs but UK pilots are also taught from an early stage how to manage an effective debrief as well.
I’m so glad things have moved on from drawing ribbons on the board. Just think of all the ink we save.
BV
Thread Starter
Ladies, Gentlemen, I doubt if the short spat above could be resolved by ACMI - no need to replay old arguments.
However, as I suggest that it is unlikely that neither one or other of the fractions were over Herefordshire yesterday, I wonder who was - #22.
Are the technicaly dominated (cost driven) modern pilots forgetting that on occasion this type of flying is just good fun.
Debrief, “did you enjoy that”.
However, as I suggest that it is unlikely that neither one or other of the fractions were over Herefordshire yesterday, I wonder who was - #22.
Are the technicaly dominated (cost driven) modern pilots forgetting that on occasion this type of flying is just good fun.
Debrief, “did you enjoy that”.
Thanks team, for saying how good ACMI, ie., RAIDS is for debriefing and thence future training (by saving the sortie as avi or the debrief files for 3D or 2D viewing).
Speaking as the Civvie bloke who used to haunt your RAIDS kit; mending it, explaining it and trying to STOP YOU BREAKING THE CARDS!
And eating lots of CQWI doughnuts....
Speaking as the Civvie bloke who used to haunt your RAIDS kit; mending it, explaining it and trying to STOP YOU BREAKING THE CARDS!
And eating lots of CQWI doughnuts....
You deliver on time, you always seem to have a story that fits the theme of the thread and takes a dig at the Yanks. Funny how one person can have so many stories. And to have such a memory as to recall an off the cuff comments many decades later...
Other than taking notice of naming a plane a nimrod, US folks don’t seem to find the need to slag your lot. Matter of fact, most of your lot don’t seem find the need to follow your lead.
Wonder where Courtney has gone ? Always enjoyed reading his posts.
Ignoring West Coast'sdaft nonsense...
In the early 1980s, I was fortunate enough to have a week of DACT with the 527th TFTS at Alconbury. They were highly professional aggressors in their F-5Es, but the call of "Atoll...Atoll" became rather common until we devised other tactics.
Their debriefs were rather polite and we asked why. "Politics", they told us - "Some of our customers don't like to hear the truth!".
So we asked for honest, gloves off debriefs and learned a lot. They were also appalled to learn of the g restrictions which our F-4s had to use, to eke out fatigue life. Hence no guns jinks to try and defeat a guns kill, for example. "What's the point of your government sending you to Aggressor training if they make you fly with one arm tied behind your back?", was the comment - to which we could only but agree.
Compare those professionals to the back-slapping, high-fiving antics of many of the Incirlik mob and, sorry Westie, they were in a different league to those numb nuts who couldn't tell a Blackhawk from a Hind. Or the ANG F-16 colonel who begged the UK jets to stir up trouble in Iraq, "Or we don't get to drop a bomb before we go home....."
In the early 1980s, I was fortunate enough to have a week of DACT with the 527th TFTS at Alconbury. They were highly professional aggressors in their F-5Es, but the call of "Atoll...Atoll" became rather common until we devised other tactics.
Their debriefs were rather polite and we asked why. "Politics", they told us - "Some of our customers don't like to hear the truth!".
So we asked for honest, gloves off debriefs and learned a lot. They were also appalled to learn of the g restrictions which our F-4s had to use, to eke out fatigue life. Hence no guns jinks to try and defeat a guns kill, for example. "What's the point of your government sending you to Aggressor training if they make you fly with one arm tied behind your back?", was the comment - to which we could only but agree.
Compare those professionals to the back-slapping, high-fiving antics of many of the Incirlik mob and, sorry Westie, they were in a different league to those numb nuts who couldn't tell a Blackhawk from a Hind. Or the ANG F-16 colonel who begged the UK jets to stir up trouble in Iraq, "Or we don't get to drop a bomb before we go home....."
Westie.....sometimes it is far better to consider the source and simply ignore the post.