Effect of EMP on modern airliners ?

[m0nkfish]

I think it unlikely you would be in serious trouble (from EMP) in the scenario you described given the distances involved. The serious EMP effects from nuclear weapons occur when detonation takes place at very high altitudes, the gamma radiation passes through the earths atmosphere, physics takes place and the EMP is generated. For low-yield, tactical weapons, detonation is more likely to occur near the ground and due to the yield involved the effects will be less severe. Yields and altitudes are unlikely to exceed those used in the only two examples we have of real world nuclear weapon usage (Hiroshima/Nagasaki), and even then the EMP that was generated would likely only effected a modern airliner if the aircraft was very close to the point of detonation to the extent that it would probably have been catastrophically damaged by the blast/heat wave.

[tdracer]

Disclaimer - I'm not exactly an expert on ElectroMagnetic Interference (EMI), but I do deal with it (basically working with the people who are experts to make sure my engine systems will operate properly in a given EMI environment).
But my understanding is that the current regulations regarding Lightning and HIRF protection provide more than adequate protection from EMP. Basically, if the EMP source is close enough to overwhelm the existing protections, the blast will be a bigger problem than the EMP...
Note also that while the HIRF/Lightning regulations are fairly recent, aircraft certified in the 1980s were covered by "Special Conditions" related to the EMI threat, and the requirements in those special conditions are not a whole lot different than what ended up in the regulations (principally 25.1316 and 25.1317).

[rmac]

Thanks Monk and TD for the feedback. Good enough for me to make an informed risk analysis on air travel in the region at the moment. Cheers. Rmac

[Pontius Navigator]

rmac, like what I said at #4.

[West Coast]

I think it unlikely you would be in serious trouble (from EMP) in the scenario you described given the distances involved.

Air Force EMP Weapon Confirmed By U.S. Military And Boeing

A device tested in New Mexico affected an airborne aircraft in Utah.

[Tourist]

rmac

Just let me get this right.

When planning your business trip routings, you are taking into account not just the usual SAM attacks, meteor strike etc but also taking into account the chance of nuclear war in the vicinity affecting your aircraft adversely.


I'd love to see the planning that goes into something actually dangerous like one of your car journeys.....

[Pontius Navigator]

West Coast et al. The OP was talking about EMP from a tactical nuclear weapon where heat and blast would destroy the aircraft at greater ranges than NEMP. NNEMP from directed energy weapons is a whole different ball game.

[m0nkfish]

West Coast,

The article you posted describes a device that is specifically designed to generate an EMP. A tactical nuclear weapon, which is what the OP was querying and is the basis for the scenario my reply was constructed on, is not designed to generate an EMP and only does so as a by product. You can create an EMP at home with a capacitor and some wire, you don't need a nuclear device to create an EMP.

[rmac]

Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator

rmac, like what I said at #4.

Yup . . . agreed

[rmac]

[QUOTE=Tourist;9307429]rmac

Just let me get this right.

When planning your business trip routings, you are taking into account not just the usual SAM attacks, meteor strike etc but also taking into account the chance of nuclear war in the vicinity affecting your aircraft adversely.

Ahem....correct me if I'm wrong, but a 777 did actually get a SAM up its tailpipe didn't it ? Which was directly connected to routing over an active war zone wasn't it ?

I might put a different risk analysis in to a car journey to Sainsburys compared to say a trip from Kuwait City to Basra by road ...

And it is my confirmed belief that we are not so far away from seeing the conflict in Syria escalate significantly along with the possibility of tac-nuke use .....if EMP had a negative effect on air traffic from 100's of miles away, I would want to avoid being in the areas of threat, much as I wouldn't be too chuffed at being flown over Eastern Ukraine around the time of the SAM threat....

[rmac]

@ tourist

I also believe that the Russians have calculated, from evaluating our previous responses to their actions, that they could get away with a low yield tac-nuke strike in an emergency and the international community will still find a way to rationalise it in order to avoid having to take any action on our side. Things are getting very dangerous and what was once unthinkable.......

[Tourist]

rmac

Ok.

Once the confluence of events comes to pass that the Russians set off a nuclear device at the same moment that you happen to be passing in a non shielded airliner, then please feel free to come on here and say "I told you so".

Until then I'm afraid I'm going to mock you gently and enquire as to which brand of tinfoil you use for your hat making......

[rmac]

@tourist

Not the same thickness of tinfoil as my HK Chinese colleagues that just cancelled a trip tp Seoul while K-J-I was threatening to play with his toys ... :-)

And I haven't written off the ME routes yet, but do bear it in mind to keep an eye on events in advance of flights .....something perhaps the pax of the BA747 which was the last in to Kuwait City before Saddam invaded maybe wished they had done ...

[Tankertrashnav]

I live a main road in the country. Sitting reading quietly in my house at night I often wish I had a very small EMP generator. First you hear (or more accurately feel) the thump thump thump of the base from a car which is maybe a couple of hundred metres away. This gets louder and louder until the car passes (interesting demo of the Doppler affect) and then gradually fades. What it's like inside the car is anyone's guess, but I wouldnt give much for the driver's hearing in a few years time. One press of my EMP button and silence, apart from "WTF?" from the driver! I could also use it on motorbike electrics on summer Sunday afternoons when the local organ donors are having an organised ride, and take about 20 minutes for all several hundred of them to pass.

Rant over - I feel better now!

Sorry for the thread drift.

[Wageslave]

How does EMP stop the base of the car going thump thump? Does it flatten the road or pump the tyres up or sumpn?

[Pontius Navigator]

Wageslave, it generates MV/m in the wiring that burns out diodes etc in the sound system, and the rest of the car electrics. In theory a diesel car will continue though I suspect with so much modern electronics the diesel would fail too.

[wanabee777]

I think he meant to write bass.

[Willard Whyte]

Wageslave, it generates MV/m in the wiring that burns out diodes etc in the sound system, and the rest of the car electrics. In theory a diesel car will continue though I suspect with so much modern electronics the diesel would fail too.

Most modern vehicles may be stopped, but unless one completely fries the electrics their ecus will simply reset and the engine may be restarted.

[Tankertrashnav]

I think he meant to write bass.

He did - spelling suffers when he is in rant mode

[Pontius Navigator]

WW, except that EMP gives you a hard kill not a soft one.

Regarding rebooting the car computer, the new to me merc I had 10 years ago had an alarming set of warnings etc where I discovered the trick of switching off and then on again.

Of course best done while stationary.