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Keystone Kops Go flying!

Old 26th Jun 2002, 22:18
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rota,

i think i've just sussed it.

are you talking about an impromptu fiery x in the middle of the fi remebrance service?

or perchance a night flypast for some lucky southern seas fisherman.

anyway, don't remeber anyone else with such a stupid name.

enjoy

noody

.
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Old 27th Jun 2002, 19:58
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Late again! - is this thread a collection of ill informed wannabes kicking around another half baked scare story in the gutter press? Or do you all know what you're talking about? either way how about giving it a rest before the leather trenchcoat brigade start delivering your mail and fixing your phone!
Time for my cocoa Mother - can I have the Sun after you to do the crossword
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 00:36
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Mmmmmmmnitwit,

Don't be so silly. There's nothing here that isn't open source, acronyms like RAP are well known and the net effect of the thread has been to pour scorn on an ill-informed article, and cast doubt on its conclusions. If I were DCC (Director of Corporate Comms) I'd be pleased that the reputation of the F3 as a BVR combat aircraft, savaged by the Sun Tel, has been restored by some people who clearly know what they're about.

WEBF

JTIDS would have been a tight fit in SHar...... Very few single-seat fighters are big enough for current JTIDs. In any case, you can do similar things more cheaply with IDM....

JN
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 05:40
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Jackonicko - the latest JTIDS terminals are much smaller than hitherto and will fit SHAR 2 without difficulty. Although the single seat workload will be pretty high.
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 08:16
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IDM should not be confused with a proper data-link. It can be a useful adjunct, for viideo and such, but it cannot achieve what JTIDS can and does on a regular basis. The Jag community think its the bees knees, but then they've never seen the real thing. Thats so true of many things, like engines, too.

I'm told that size is unimportant, but nevertheless, most JTIDS terminals are considerably smaller, but just as capable, than the F3 terminal. As for integration, the F3 is recognised by the JU community as a well integrated solution, better than most.
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 10:25
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According to the Aerosystems International website, the latest bits of kit for JTIDS are about the same size as a shoebox. They were talking about JTIDS in tankers and said the initial fit had been the size of a fridge, the new one was like a shoebox in size.

BEagle, I thought JTIDS was meant (partly) to simplify the demands on the pilot?

I saw an article on TV where the Duke of York visted AEI. He said "In my day, I did my naviagation.......". I thought "No you didn't Sir, you turned to your Observer and said "Where are we?"". Semmed like there are lots of nice girls there. MMMMmm.

Jacko, isn't IDM more for reece? Isn't that wht the Jag has it?

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 28th Jun 2002 at 10:33.
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 12:25
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Before we get in a silly squabble, I'd just like to say that you are all correct about everything!!!!
JTIDS boxes have got smaller since the F3 started using them years ago. However they also tend to be smaller for single seat platforms because they're not necessarily all singing all dancing - as they are on an F3 - because one guy simply hasn't get time to be tapping in messages, or whatever, as he approaches the merge!

The full range available goes from the aforementioned all singing all dancing to purely position reporting / receiving modems, and anywhere in between. When an IDM becomes JTIDS is, I think, just a matter of what jargon industry want to use today.

As for tankers, they obviously don't need a full up terminal, but it isn't half helpful when you can see where they are on JTIDS - but I think the muds might argue that their need is greater. It might just stop them shooting friendly fighters for a change!
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 18:34
  #48 (permalink)  
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MIDS terminal are to be fitted to the Eurofighter, F-16, F-18E and Rafale.

For the next generation (F-22, JSF and RAH-66 Comanche) L16 is integrated into the avionics. Digital (JTRS) radios integrate the L16 waveform so that one radio can simultaneously handle all voice and data. For the next generation, the weight penalty is zero, It's all done by software.

MIDS terminals also support a L16-VMF (SADL/EPLRS) gateway. VMF allows MIDS/SADL aircraft (The IDM uses SADL) to link to ground unit EPLRS radios which provide targeting, display EPLRS-equipped vehicles and warn when targets are close to friendly units.

The gateway will also enable IDM/SADL equipped aircraft and L16 equipped aircraft to share a common picture.


The trick will be integrating it into the radar, weapon system and head-up display.
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 21:09
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Nosegunner - whilst I concede that tankers need fewer timeslot allocations, the purpose of the JTIDS terminal in a tanker is rather more than just for the benefit of the pointy heads in fighters! It is needed for insurance against fratricide, threat warning and to optimise AAR employment. It will also provide other JUs with specific and relayed data...

I have always said that, had tankers in the ROZ had a JTIDS SRAP at the time, it is possible that the Blackhawk incident might have been averted as someone could have spotted the developing blue-on-blue and woken up the AWACS gang
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 22:14
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MaxB and WEBF

My understanding is that IDM is a useful tactical data link, and was found to be very useful by USAF F-16s who trialled it during Project Goldstrike. It's NOT JTIDS in any way, but it's a very good way of getting a nine line into the cockpit, or for giving a Link 16 originated RAP to the IDM user. It's a good tool for OS support of SF, too, I believe, but we'd best pass over that. And it's as cheap as chips.

With specific regard to IDM on Jag, I'd point out that only 1 of the 3 squadrons does recce, and that to be seriously useful for recce you need PRISM IDM and a digital recorder. (PRISM IDM = a PRISM card in the standard IDM toaster). That gives near-real time recce capability - very, very cheaply.

My understanding wrt JTIDS on SHar is that it was specifically cancelled due to the size constraint, presumably because at THAT time they were looking at THAT kit.

JN
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Old 28th Jun 2002, 22:39
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A mid-course update capability is *allegedly* on its way...

Full AMRAAM capability for Tornado F3
Jane’s Defense Weekly 28/06/02

The UK MoD has revealed a further package of enhancements and support measures worth almost £200 million for the RAF's fleet of Tornado F3 air-defence fighters.

Key to the new package of enhancements is the introduction of a mid-course guidance capability to enhance the utility of its primary weapon system: the AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM).

The aircraft currently lacks this capability - targeting information for the weapon is only provided before launch by its Foxhunter fire-control radar. The guidance update will be funded by a £28 million AMRAAM Optimisation Programme and will be fielded to meet an in-service date of early 2003, according to the MoD.

BAE Systems' officials reveal that this work was contracted in May 2001, and comprises improvements to the F3's radar and its main mission system computer.

In a related development, BAE Systems Customer Solutions and Support on 14 June received an approximately £75 million contract to provide support services for the Foxhunter radar until the F3's planned retirement.
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 12:37
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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New funds for F3

Why are the governement / MOD spending EVEN MORE MONEY on this F3 AMRAAM upgrade when a. it is soon to go out of service, and b. the SHar already has this capability?
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 13:58
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a. 10 years is hardly just "soon to go out of service."

b. so if 1 aircraft has a capability you never give it to any others? Don't forget F3 already has lots of capability that SHar doesn't. (ASRAAM, JTIDS, multi-crew, speed, turn performance(!), EPM (or is it ECM)........., but what have the romans ever done for us?

Keep smiling, none of it really matters!
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 23:02
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"Don't forget F3 already has lots of capability that SHar doesn't. (ASRAAM, JTIDS, multi-crew, speed, turn performance(!), EPM (or is it ECM).........," and range, combat persistence, etc.

What a pity you can't also say a decent ELS, EO GP(1) recce, TIALD, HMSS and all the other stuff that was so nearly incorporated....
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Old 30th Jun 2002, 04:34
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Cool

Noody,

Sadly not me, but it sounded like fun non the less! No, my story involved nothing more than a "Borrowed" Land Rover!....Like I said, if you didn't "Know", you weren't there! Still, sounds like you have plenty a tale of your own!!

Rota
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