Is it all really worth it now?
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Is it all really worth it now?
So, as of today:
1. AFPS15
2. Pay reforms under NEM
3. An SDSR that brought us lots of shiney kit, but nothing for the people
4. Big changes in recruitment, Fg Trg and IOT (again)
5. A strong possibility of returning to Iraq for the 3rd time in recent years
But mostly:
6. A legal microscope cast over every single act we conduct during war fighting/conflict.....will 'honest belief' cut the mustard anymore?
Hence my question; is it all really worth it now? Are people really leaving in droves or is everyone all mouth and only planning to leave? For me, the job still brings adventure, a feeling of making a difference and experiences I will never get elsewhere, so I'm staying and still enjoying even if it does leave a slightly sour taste in my mouth now. But... I am closer than ever to saying 'enough is enough' and that worries me. What will come next?
Ps a big BZ to the soldiers who are stepping up to cover the Junior Doctors strike, yet again Britain relies on its armed forces in times of strikes!
1. AFPS15
2. Pay reforms under NEM
3. An SDSR that brought us lots of shiney kit, but nothing for the people
4. Big changes in recruitment, Fg Trg and IOT (again)
5. A strong possibility of returning to Iraq for the 3rd time in recent years
But mostly:
6. A legal microscope cast over every single act we conduct during war fighting/conflict.....will 'honest belief' cut the mustard anymore?
Hence my question; is it all really worth it now? Are people really leaving in droves or is everyone all mouth and only planning to leave? For me, the job still brings adventure, a feeling of making a difference and experiences I will never get elsewhere, so I'm staying and still enjoying even if it does leave a slightly sour taste in my mouth now. But... I am closer than ever to saying 'enough is enough' and that worries me. What will come next?
Ps a big BZ to the soldiers who are stepping up to cover the Junior Doctors strike, yet again Britain relies on its armed forces in times of strikes!
Last edited by wokkamate; 13th Jan 2016 at 07:20. Reason: Typoos...
Are people really leaving in droves or is everyone all mouth and only planning to leave?
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TOTD - They are therefore missing the point about the millions of pounds and thousands of hours of experience, operational and otherwise, of those leaving, that cannot simply be replaced by increased recruitment! Mentalists. Is the civvy market not in a buoyant mood currently though? I know North Sea slots are down, but the airlines are massively recruiting.
They are therefore missing the point about the millions of pounds and thousands of hours of experience
Originally Posted by TOTD
The top ass are much more interested in furthering their own careers - if any crisis is going to surface beyond the end of their time in post, they have no interest.
Lots of proponents of that argument have been very surprised to see what the "top brass" (or whatever you choose to call them) actually do for all three Armed Services when they get into a position when they can see first hand.
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Best thing I ever did was join in 1989, second best thing I ever did was leave in 2012. Now earning twice my military salary, and banking my untouched pension.
Leaving is nothing to be afraid of. Do it and 98% of you will not have any regrets. There will always be the small 2% who cannot cope with having to work for a living, inside or outside the military.
Leaving is nothing to be afraid of. Do it and 98% of you will not have any regrets. There will always be the small 2% who cannot cope with having to work for a living, inside or outside the military.
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Courtney,
Maybe it is different in the US, but I doubt it. Here is a US Navy Admiral (Ret.) speaking out about history and how it could have been modified after the fact. I don't think it is so much furthering their careers as saving their careers. There is a chain of command that even Admirals and Generals must follow, they aren't really the top dogs.
http://m.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=51fe948515b4
Maybe it is different in the US, but I doubt it. Here is a US Navy Admiral (Ret.) speaking out about history and how it could have been modified after the fact. I don't think it is so much furthering their careers as saving their careers. There is a chain of command that even Admirals and Generals must follow, they aren't really the top dogs.
http://m.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=51fe948515b4
No, they are not the top dogs but by staying in post Turbine D's Admiral and the other VSOs implicitly supported the very decisions that he now condemns. When was the last VSO (US or UK) resignation on principle? "Saving their careers" has a cost, not perhaps to them but to their subordinates and their country. Not convinced by Rear Admiral Lyons, I'm afraid.
Chug, I see the point you're making, do you really believe that the resignation of any VSO will influence the decisions or thinking of any politician? By resigning, the good VSOs simply take themselves away from the place where they can do good.
In fairness, often VSOs receive very poor advice from their subordinates. Sometimes the "conspiracy of optimism" becomes self-fulfilling and any attempts by SQEP to point at a "naked emperor" get steamrollered.
The issue is often in the ambitious SO1-1* cadre who make, sometimes poorly informed, decisions then sell them up the chain. The top strata are normally very generalist having hopped between roles gaining a paper thin understanding of several areas, and, not unreasonably, they rely on their Staff to help. The problem comes when the Staff are all hopping around too trying to be "broad", trying to avoid/defer decisions if possible (less chance of a mistake that way....) yet still trying to get noticed. The SQEP are increasingly being hollowed out so corporate knowledge is fading rapidly and often they don't have the rank to be listened to. Once enshrined, it is very difficult to reverse a bad decision as it calls into question the judgement of senior hands. I give you the disaster of Cap Dev disaggregation as a prime example.....
It's not easy being the most junior officer in the room telling "inconvenient truths" to the 1* whilst watching the SO1s/OF5s shift very awkwardly in their seats - well, actually it is if it's your last working day and you're one of only two acknowledged mil SQEP in the room....and it's also quite good fun!
I've seen plenty of this happening in DE&S, and I'm sure Tuc has seen a lot more. The moral is don't always blame the VSO.....we don't have a mass nor promotion system that generates a broad range of experts at very senior rank.
Back on thread - is it worth it? Unequivocally yes. You meet fantastic people, do amazing things and have the opportunity to fly or work on some awesome aircraft. I'd do it again in a heartbeat....
The issue is often in the ambitious SO1-1* cadre who make, sometimes poorly informed, decisions then sell them up the chain. The top strata are normally very generalist having hopped between roles gaining a paper thin understanding of several areas, and, not unreasonably, they rely on their Staff to help. The problem comes when the Staff are all hopping around too trying to be "broad", trying to avoid/defer decisions if possible (less chance of a mistake that way....) yet still trying to get noticed. The SQEP are increasingly being hollowed out so corporate knowledge is fading rapidly and often they don't have the rank to be listened to. Once enshrined, it is very difficult to reverse a bad decision as it calls into question the judgement of senior hands. I give you the disaster of Cap Dev disaggregation as a prime example.....
It's not easy being the most junior officer in the room telling "inconvenient truths" to the 1* whilst watching the SO1s/OF5s shift very awkwardly in their seats - well, actually it is if it's your last working day and you're one of only two acknowledged mil SQEP in the room....and it's also quite good fun!
I've seen plenty of this happening in DE&S, and I'm sure Tuc has seen a lot more. The moral is don't always blame the VSO.....we don't have a mass nor promotion system that generates a broad range of experts at very senior rank.
Back on thread - is it worth it? Unequivocally yes. You meet fantastic people, do amazing things and have the opportunity to fly or work on some awesome aircraft. I'd do it again in a heartbeat....
Of course I'm not demanding resignations all round over every little issue, Courtney. It depends on the gravity of those issues. If for instance MOD policy required such stringent cut backs that the only way perceived of attaining them was to act illegally by issuing orders to suborn air safety regulations but to sign them off as complied with, then I would expect VSOs to defy such policy, and if necessary resign rather than comply. Just a hypothetical example of course...
Concur with WW. I joined in 1984 and left in 2012 having volunteered for T1 redundancy. I had a great time up to about the time that JPA was introduced and then felt the Service as a whole was rapidly becoming less fun and being "led" by misplaced MBA/commercial practices. Had I stayed in beyond 2012 I think I would have made some regrettable outbursts; it was time to go.
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Is it worth it? I suppose it depends on the timescale and how varied your career has been. It also helps to compare it with what others outside the mob have done. I guess we become a bit blase about moving around, doing various out of the ordinary jobs and living and working in other countries. I regard my career as unremarkable but compared with the lives and careers of the parents I meet at my daughter's school it seems amazing to them! Opportunities to live and work in UK, Grmany, Cyprus, The FI and the USA (twice) are not available to many. If however you look back at the last 5 to 10 years the decline of the service ethos and offer takes the shine off. On the whole I'm glad I have had a full career, but I'm not sure I shall miss the past few years once I do go.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Avtur, that commercial stuff came in in the 90s by bosses CV polishing - risk assessment, QA, method statements, European computer driving licence, NMS, centres becoming Agencies and so on.
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I joined in 1988 and left on redundancy in 2011.
By the time i left i didn't want want to be in and the redundancy was bonus.
Rubbish like the RAF sending you on a course and expecting you to pay the Hotel bill and claim it back were just ridiculous. Pay as you dine - can't remember a decent meal at a camp with that in operation.
Having to pass a computer test to drive MT in Cyprus with questions on trains, trams and what you do if you come across a horse and rider - if i found any of those on the Pan i'd have been worried. The test was designed for Germany - there it should have stayed.
As a TG 1 Engine / Airframe SNCO i was surprised in early 2011 to receive a DWR for the Falklands as a Cpl Chef in the Officers Mess!
Once that cock up was sorted i did a 2 week course at Cosford to look after LITS in the Falklands (i can only imagine a Chef somewhere wondering what the **** LITS was). At the end of the course we were all informed that we wouldn't need anything we'd learned as it was all going to a service desk and we'd just do what we were told by a voice on a phone.
I wouldn't join up now and wouldn't encourage anyone to. Service life has been massively eroded, the NEM doesn't seem to help many, in lots of cases it makes promotion almost pointless. There's lots of talk about the Military Covenant but i've seen nothing but lip service being paid to it, they might as well just bin it.
Our own government paying lawyers to prosecute the troops they sent to war should be the thing that virtually kills recruitment...
By the time i left i didn't want want to be in and the redundancy was bonus.
Rubbish like the RAF sending you on a course and expecting you to pay the Hotel bill and claim it back were just ridiculous. Pay as you dine - can't remember a decent meal at a camp with that in operation.
Having to pass a computer test to drive MT in Cyprus with questions on trains, trams and what you do if you come across a horse and rider - if i found any of those on the Pan i'd have been worried. The test was designed for Germany - there it should have stayed.
As a TG 1 Engine / Airframe SNCO i was surprised in early 2011 to receive a DWR for the Falklands as a Cpl Chef in the Officers Mess!
Once that cock up was sorted i did a 2 week course at Cosford to look after LITS in the Falklands (i can only imagine a Chef somewhere wondering what the **** LITS was). At the end of the course we were all informed that we wouldn't need anything we'd learned as it was all going to a service desk and we'd just do what we were told by a voice on a phone.
I wouldn't join up now and wouldn't encourage anyone to. Service life has been massively eroded, the NEM doesn't seem to help many, in lots of cases it makes promotion almost pointless. There's lots of talk about the Military Covenant but i've seen nothing but lip service being paid to it, they might as well just bin it.
Our own government paying lawyers to prosecute the troops they sent to war should be the thing that virtually kills recruitment...
When was the last VSO (US or UK) resignation on principle? - Chug
Admiral Sir David Luce comes to mind, vide the following extract from Wiki to keep it simple:
"Luce became First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff in August 1963. He resigned from the Royal Navy along with Navy Minister Christopher Mayhew on 15 March 1966 in protest over the decision by the Labour Secretary of State for Defence, Denis Healey, to cancel the CVA-01 aircraft carrier programme."
Not a resignation issue but, whilst still serving as CDS, Admiral Lord Boyce stood up pretty well to Anthony Charles Lyndon Blair regarding the legality of involvement in Iraq, as opposed to waiting until leaving office.
Jack
Admiral Sir David Luce comes to mind, vide the following extract from Wiki to keep it simple:
"Luce became First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff in August 1963. He resigned from the Royal Navy along with Navy Minister Christopher Mayhew on 15 March 1966 in protest over the decision by the Labour Secretary of State for Defence, Denis Healey, to cancel the CVA-01 aircraft carrier programme."
Not a resignation issue but, whilst still serving as CDS, Admiral Lord Boyce stood up pretty well to Anthony Charles Lyndon Blair regarding the legality of involvement in Iraq, as opposed to waiting until leaving office.
Jack
CM
In 2001 John Day threatened to resign if the House of Lords went against him on the Mull of Kintyre matter. They did. He didn't. But before they did, Lord Chalfont was briefed by Baroness Symons, and then wrote;
“I have had some private indication from the MoD that the political implications are now the subject of much debate within the Ministry, but that one of the main factors in their minds is the possible resignation of an Air Marshal.” (11th February 2002)
do you really believe that the resignation of any VSO will influence the decisions or thinking of any politician
“I have had some private indication from the MoD that the political implications are now the subject of much debate within the Ministry, but that one of the main factors in their minds is the possible resignation of an Air Marshal.” (11th February 2002)
In 2001 John Day threatened to resign if the House of Lords went against him on the Mull of Kintyre matter.
Originally Posted by Tuc
In 2001 John Day threatened to resign if the House of Lords went against him on the Mull of Kintyre matter. They did. He didn't.
Actually, in a lot of cases, that kind of opposition could even harden a politician's resolve, not wanting to be publicly defeated by a public servant on a matter of principle. The threat of resignation, probably even less effective. In the leadership's collective mind, there are plenty more people waiting to fill Stars' boots.
In Lord Chalfont's words, the possible resignation of an Air Marshall was the main factor in the MoD's minds. Not in the politician's minds.