Gary Powers U2 mission 1960
So I rather wasted my time posting anything above the final sentence, which is the sole basis for your ad hominem disguised as a lofty rebuttal, then?
By the by, posting 'merely what happened or what was believed to have happened at the time' which could be seen to be deleterious to the reputation of someone who is still alive could land you (and the website you do it on) in a some bother (see, as but one instance, McAlpine vs Bercow where Mrs Bercow only alluded to libelous comment about Lord McAlpine, but was deemed to have repeated the libel).
I'd say that repeating suggestions that Powers was both inept and at best less-than-robust in the way he faced interrogation (he was later awarded a Silver Star for his resistance to that interrogation) might be seen as deleterious to his reputation, but as I suggested, since he's dead, the point is moot.
(I might be precious (although I'm guessing a couple of Ppruners who know me mightbe on the verge of death through excessive guffawing), but I do at least try to be polite....)
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If you can find a copy,
is very interesting. One thing that got my attention was that when he left the USAF for the CIA his class was told that after a few years in CIA they would return to the USAF with no loss of time in service or rank.
Which of course didn't happen with Powers.
A few years ago some retired CIA pilots gave a presentation at Air Venture about Cold War reconnaissance. I asked about this, and was told that none of those early CIA U-2 pilots returned to the USAF. Most of them stayed with the CIA until retirement, many going on to fly the A-12 and WB-57.
As a former WSO/EWO I was happy to hear them complain that the many of the WB-57 backseaters were contractors who made much more money than the pilots.
Which of course didn't happen with Powers.
A few years ago some retired CIA pilots gave a presentation at Air Venture about Cold War reconnaissance. I asked about this, and was told that none of those early CIA U-2 pilots returned to the USAF. Most of them stayed with the CIA until retirement, many going on to fly the A-12 and WB-57.
As a former WSO/EWO I was happy to hear them complain that the many of the WB-57 backseaters were contractors who made much more money than the pilots.
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Suggestions the Frank Powers was a coward, or failed in some way are very crass.
He was just the first U-2 pilot of many, to be shot down by the SA-2.
He had pressed on, on a very tricky flight indeed, when lesser men would have aborted.
He seems eventually to have been treated well, but I think the US would have really ignored him, had he died- in fact the whole flight would have been denied.
A brave man.
He was just the first U-2 pilot of many, to be shot down by the SA-2.
He had pressed on, on a very tricky flight indeed, when lesser men would have aborted.
He seems eventually to have been treated well, but I think the US would have really ignored him, had he died- in fact the whole flight would have been denied.
A brave man.
Gentleman Aviator
After all he went through, seems such a waste to have died after (probably) running out of fuel in a Jet Ranger.........
Wageslave....He didn't activate the self destruct and allegedly talked far too much and far too freely once safe. He handed the Sovs the entire package. He screwed the pooch.....
He was shot down, he was in a death spiral in the remains of the cockpit, had concerns about the ejection seat (wanting to keep his legs) so he commenced steps to use the alternate bale out method and was effectively spat out before he could flip the destruct switch....
For those so inclinded to review it, his debrief is interesting as it covers the pin issuance (offered, not ordered to use), seat straps (tight) and the alternate bale out method....
Debriefing of Francis Gary Powers, February 13, 1962
".....So, I stopped and thought that I could possibly climb out. I reached up and got both the emergency and normal canopy release handles, pulled them back, the normal side released first and it flew open and fell on off very nicely, and I immediately opened my seat belt, and the G-forces raised me up in a sort of a standing position. My oxygen hose was still hooked up - I had forgotten to disconnect that but I hadn't forgotten to pull my emergency oxygen supply.
That was already on - I did that one of the first things, but I was at least half way out of the airplane leaning leaning over the top of the canopy like this and I think that the only thing that was holding me in was my oxygen hose. I tried to get back in the airplane because I had to use that destructor switch. I couldn't get back in - I couldn't get out - just hanging there with my head out in the air, and some way I knocked this rear view mirror off - 1 remember seeing it float off forward relative to me. I tried to reach down in the airplane back here to get to the destructor switches - I couldn't get to them and I knew I was below 34, 000 feet - I didn't know how high I was - had no way of knowing when I first opened the canopy my face plate fogged up completely - couldn't see. I knew I was getting close to the ground - I had no idea how close, and I knew after trying to get back in there so I could get to the destruction switches that I couldn't do it - it was impossible, so I just gave a big kick - lunge - and something gave on that oxygen hose - I don't know what broke but something gave, maybe it just pulled out of the quick disconnect there even though I had it locked - somewhere along in there it gave and I went off into the air...."
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QUOTE: A few years ago some retired CIA pilots gave a presentation at Air Venture about Cold War reconnaissance. I asked about this, and was told that none of those early CIA U-2 pilots returned to the USAF. Most of them stayed with the CIA until retirement, many going on to fly the A-12 and WB-57. UNQUOTE
Actually, many of the early CIA U-2 pilots did return to the USAF. I know of at least seven of those "sheep-dipped" into the CIA program who went back to Air Force flying. One, Hervey Stockman, spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton after being shot down in an RF-4C. Hervey flew the first U-2 mission over the USSR on 4 July 1956.
I am also pretty confident that none of the CIA U-2 drivers went on to fly the A-12.
Actually, many of the early CIA U-2 pilots did return to the USAF. I know of at least seven of those "sheep-dipped" into the CIA program who went back to Air Force flying. One, Hervey Stockman, spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton after being shot down in an RF-4C. Hervey flew the first U-2 mission over the USSR on 4 July 1956.
I am also pretty confident that none of the CIA U-2 drivers went on to fly the A-12.
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Sandiego89 said:
I second SanDiego's reply. And FWIW, USAF did far more than give Powers the "benefit of the doubt", but (belatedly) awarded him the Silver Star for exhibiting “indomitable spirit, exceptional loyalty, and continuous heroic actions" while undergoing "unmentionable hardships on a continuous basis by numerous top Soviet Secret Police interrogating teams." It's heart breaking that Powers' reputation was smeared for decades after this incident. It's unconscionable that there are those who continue to smear him when the record has been set straight and that record is so easily and readily available.
Glad that others have responded to this as well. I am sure Wageslave would have done everything properly, but since I have never been shot down and been spat out of spinning wreckage, or faced months of isolation and interogation I tend to give Mr. Powers the benefit of the doubt.
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Interesting in what way I wondered? Isn't this just the straightforward tale of FGP that is well known?
He didn't activate the self destruct and allegedly talked far too much and far too freely once safe. He handed the Sovs the entire package. He screwed the pooch. How could he expect to be "popular" on his return? I remember at the time my Dad saying that as the U2 was considered untouchable pilots were not given counter-interrogation training which was the only reason he was not courtmartialed and banged up for life tho I was too young to understand.
He didn't activate the self destruct and allegedly talked far too much and far too freely once safe. He handed the Sovs the entire package. He screwed the pooch. How could he expect to be "popular" on his return? I remember at the time my Dad saying that as the U2 was considered untouchable pilots were not given counter-interrogation training which was the only reason he was not courtmartialed and banged up for life tho I was too young to understand.
I agree with many here who give Powers the benefit of the doubt - if there is any remaining doubt. I recall, however, that while in AFROTC back in the 60's, my field grade USAF pilot instructors who just returned from SEA combat flying, were very critical of him. Mostly saying he should have used the needle to prevent release of classified information. I suppose the context of their remarks was their own combat experience over the North and perhaps even the continued use of U2 and SR71 in SEA.
I personally make no judgment of what Powers did, his own account seems to be reasonable. But I also can understand the position of my pilot instructors and what they considered a security risk to those still flying over the North. Interesting that one of the CIA U2 pilots returned to the USAF and ended up as a POW too. I wonder what his opinion Powers' performance was. If he was critical he may not have expressed it.
I personally make no judgment of what Powers did, his own account seems to be reasonable. But I also can understand the position of my pilot instructors and what they considered a security risk to those still flying over the North. Interesting that one of the CIA U2 pilots returned to the USAF and ended up as a POW too. I wonder what his opinion Powers' performance was. If he was critical he may not have expressed it.
GN,
During the days of the Vietnam War, many pilots captured by the North Vietnamese had knowledge of very classified Nuclear Information and other information that would have been of much value to the North Vietnam, China, and the Soviets.
It was always a risk they could be convinced to disclose what they knew.
I don't suppose those who were so critical of Powers would have considered using their own Service issued Revolver to shoot themselves in the Head to prevent their deciding to talk while being tortured would they.
During the days of the Vietnam War, many pilots captured by the North Vietnamese had knowledge of very classified Nuclear Information and other information that would have been of much value to the North Vietnam, China, and the Soviets.
It was always a risk they could be convinced to disclose what they knew.
I don't suppose those who were so critical of Powers would have considered using their own Service issued Revolver to shoot themselves in the Head to prevent their deciding to talk while being tortured would they.
SL "I don't suppose those who were so critical of Powers would have considered using their own Service issued Revolver to shoot themselves in the Head to prevent their deciding to talk while being tortured would they."
Gladly I have had no such experience and certainly no criticism of those who lived through it. I appreciate what they suffered through and glad they survived, though many did not. The reality, as reported by many of them, is that indeed while most will reveal something, the trick is to reveal as little as possible, even to mislead where possible. So I judge not - the residents of the Hanoi Hilton, nor Francis Powers - I tip my hat to them.
The point of my first post here was to merely give some sense of what the thinking was at the time, by those who have more than a little interest and background.
Gladly I have had no such experience and certainly no criticism of those who lived through it. I appreciate what they suffered through and glad they survived, though many did not. The reality, as reported by many of them, is that indeed while most will reveal something, the trick is to reveal as little as possible, even to mislead where possible. So I judge not - the residents of the Hanoi Hilton, nor Francis Powers - I tip my hat to them.
The point of my first post here was to merely give some sense of what the thinking was at the time, by those who have more than a little interest and background.
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In 1964, On my first evening with the U-2 program, I was introduced to Barry, "one of the drivers." Upon my questioning Barry regarding Powers, he stated that "Frank did as well as any of us would have under the circumstances." I found this to be the attitude of the other pilots and all personnel who had served with Powers held FGP in high regard.
The cover story fell apart when the route map was found. Even if he had managed to throw the destruct switches, there would have been enough pieces found of the very impressive "B" camera and the elint recorders to tell the tale. The AI jammer in the tail (separated in the initial airframe breakup) was not compatible with the NASA weather ship story. While not denying the undeniable, Powers was able to deflect many questions by pretending to be just a stick monkey who pressed certain switches at certain points on the chart but had not been allowed to know anything of his payload.
Among the secrets he kept to himself were the Brit participation in the U-2 program, the many U-2 middle eastern missions, the names of his fellow U-2 pilots. He let the Russians believe he had been a couple of thousand feet lower than actual when he had been shot down. As already mentioned, he was offered the needle as an option. He could have declined to take it with him and still would have been launched.
Kubarque
The cover story fell apart when the route map was found. Even if he had managed to throw the destruct switches, there would have been enough pieces found of the very impressive "B" camera and the elint recorders to tell the tale. The AI jammer in the tail (separated in the initial airframe breakup) was not compatible with the NASA weather ship story. While not denying the undeniable, Powers was able to deflect many questions by pretending to be just a stick monkey who pressed certain switches at certain points on the chart but had not been allowed to know anything of his payload.
Among the secrets he kept to himself were the Brit participation in the U-2 program, the many U-2 middle eastern missions, the names of his fellow U-2 pilots. He let the Russians believe he had been a couple of thousand feet lower than actual when he had been shot down. As already mentioned, he was offered the needle as an option. He could have declined to take it with him and still would have been launched.
Kubarque
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Kubarque
Having read FGP's book and being an aviator who is healthily cynical with regards to the 'Lords and Masters', I was left with the impression he did a good job considering he was in deep ****.
Well said.
Having read FGP's book and being an aviator who is healthily cynical with regards to the 'Lords and Masters', I was left with the impression he did a good job considering he was in deep ****.
Well said.
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Don't know if it's been said but this is worth a read:
CIA and Overhead Reconnaissance paper or OXCART
http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/defaul...1992-04-01.pdf
Grab a cuppa before you start it.
CIA and Overhead Reconnaissance paper or OXCART
http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/defaul...1992-04-01.pdf
Grab a cuppa before you start it.
GN,
I have visited the Hanoi Hilton and while inside some of the Cells....one can only begin to imagine what it must have been like to be at the complete mercy of some very un-nice individuals who sole mission was to extract "confessions" and information from you using whatever means they wished for as long as they wished and no real concern if you survived or not.
I am so glad I never had to confront such a situation.....and I can only stand in admiration to those that did...and who prevailed over Evil as they did.
Now that the true Story of the Clandestine Communication system that was in place is being told it really does add a dimension to the story that we all need to read and appreciate.
Stockdale won the Medal of Honor for his courageous actions and others were cited for theirs as well.
I have visited the Hanoi Hilton and while inside some of the Cells....one can only begin to imagine what it must have been like to be at the complete mercy of some very un-nice individuals who sole mission was to extract "confessions" and information from you using whatever means they wished for as long as they wished and no real concern if you survived or not.
I am so glad I never had to confront such a situation.....and I can only stand in admiration to those that did...and who prevailed over Evil as they did.
Now that the true Story of the Clandestine Communication system that was in place is being told it really does add a dimension to the story that we all need to read and appreciate.
Stockdale won the Medal of Honor for his courageous actions and others were cited for theirs as well.
SL - I am in complete agreement with you. Our country has been blessed to have such men (and women) in its service.
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Brian
A more recent release of this history is here:
The Secret History of the U-2 - and Area 51
A lot of the redactions have been filled-in including the previously deleted UK and Nationalist Chinese participation.
Links to individual chapters as well as a torrent of the whole document at bottom of page.
A more recent release of this history is here:
The Secret History of the U-2 - and Area 51
A lot of the redactions have been filled-in including the previously deleted UK and Nationalist Chinese participation.
Links to individual chapters as well as a torrent of the whole document at bottom of page.
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Thanks Kubarque didn't realise it had been updated.
Have kebabed with U2 pilots and engineers in Akrotiri in 70s and met a mess of pilots et al from Alconbury at Wyton in the late 80s when their TR1s used to fly through the RAF Wyton circuit.
Guys came for a fly in a Canberra, but oddly enough, didn't reciprocate
Have kebabed with U2 pilots and engineers in Akrotiri in 70s and met a mess of pilots et al from Alconbury at Wyton in the late 80s when their TR1s used to fly through the RAF Wyton circuit.
Guys came for a fly in a Canberra, but oddly enough, didn't reciprocate