"Dumbing down" RAF Officers?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Better Late than Never !
Wrathmonk (your #102),
First, I must apologise for this tardy reply, but the Thread deals in matters beyond my ken, at least as '41-'46 is concerned, and it is only by chance that I have looked at it now. I was Elevated to the Peerage in '43 in this way (extracts from my Post p.131 #2612 on "Pilot's Brevet" - "Danny has Greatness thrust upon Him"):
As we had neither dining tables, decanters nor Port in Burma, there was no problem.
Taking refuge from civil life in '49, I returned to the RAF. From then on till '72, as far as I remember, out of sight of top table, we slithered the decanter along (less chance of dropping it that way !)
Danny42C.
...Come on Danny42C - lets get this tradition back to the 40's!..
... It seemed to us that the Dominion Governments had decided on a policy to commission all their Sergeant-Pilots in India. As a Briton, I was the odd man out.
Up to then, I'd been quite content to remain an NCO. I'd been a bit disappointed when I got my wings without even having been considered for a commission. But I'd settled down and, had I stayed in the UK, would have hoped, had I lived (more than doubtful), to rise to Flight Sergeant (one year) and Warrant Officer (two years) on time promotion. But this latest business seemed most unfair.
I went to see the C.O. "Why not ?" he said wearily, "Everybody else is getting it - I'll put you up" (my misdemeanour at Dum-Dum seemed to have been forgiven). It was a formality from then on. I was called for interview with the AOC of 221 Group in Calcutta, a kindly old AVM (Williams, I think), He satisfied himself that I didn't drop my aitches, and could probably use a knife and fork, and signed me in. Thus are careers made.... ........OCTU ?........ What's that?..
Up to then, I'd been quite content to remain an NCO. I'd been a bit disappointed when I got my wings without even having been considered for a commission. But I'd settled down and, had I stayed in the UK, would have hoped, had I lived (more than doubtful), to rise to Flight Sergeant (one year) and Warrant Officer (two years) on time promotion. But this latest business seemed most unfair.
I went to see the C.O. "Why not ?" he said wearily, "Everybody else is getting it - I'll put you up" (my misdemeanour at Dum-Dum seemed to have been forgiven). It was a formality from then on. I was called for interview with the AOC of 221 Group in Calcutta, a kindly old AVM (Williams, I think), He satisfied himself that I didn't drop my aitches, and could probably use a knife and fork, and signed me in. Thus are careers made.... ........OCTU ?........ What's that?..
Taking refuge from civil life in '49, I returned to the RAF. From then on till '72, as far as I remember, out of sight of top table, we slithered the decanter along (less chance of dropping it that way !)
Danny42C.
Last edited by Danny42C; 5th Feb 2016 at 01:15. Reason: Spell !
Thanks for the heads up, Stuff you, have highlighted something that the chap in 22 Gp I spoke to failed to mention. Although I must admit I'm not sure the OU was what said individual had in mind. I wonder if the shortened course will still attract the same level of credits?
As you are being so helpful, stuff you, could also perhaps explain what exactly you mean by drivel? The fact that the RAF has adopted the mantra 'thinking to win', the fact that the new course was an academic improvement over the old course or the fact that DefAc DS thought that army and navy studes were often better placed to rise to the challenge of continued academic development than their RAF counterparts?
As you are being so helpful, stuff you, could also perhaps explain what exactly you mean by drivel? The fact that the RAF has adopted the mantra 'thinking to win', the fact that the new course was an academic improvement over the old course or the fact that DefAc DS thought that army and navy studes were often better placed to rise to the challenge of continued academic development than their RAF counterparts?
The RAF students more than held their own and it was the RN who were most concerned about the overall quality of their students; this contributed to (but was far from the only factor in) a redesign of what was then the ISC and its becoming the ICSC (Maritime).
The RAF students often won (and still do) the end of course prizes open to students from all three services and a respectable number - more, from memory, than from the other two services - have gone on to undertake MPhils [at least two of whom are members of PPrune] and embark upon PhDs [at least one lurking member of PPrune].
The OU may be a better bet than other institutions; as many RN and Army officers have discovered, having the time to take their credits forward is difficult. Credits are 'lifed' by most accrediting universities, and if the degree is not completed within a certain period, the credits from RMAS/Dartmouth can be lost. Much of the learning undertaken for the degree (if the poor JO in any of the services has the time) has to be done at distance nowadays - time spent on PPrune being put aside for online debating on the relevant degree programme's internet fora, etc.
One of the points to bear in mind about RAFC is that an awful lot of the OCdts already possess a degree and the RAF view has been that some of the material covered at IOT can be left until afterwards (for instance on JOD1); while credits are a useful thing to have upon completion of IOT for DE officers, the critical point - as ever - was that broader issues than the possibility of gaining credits for a BA drove developments (whether rightly or wrongly is a separate debate).
I don't know what the shortened course will lose exactly, but if the academic content meets the requirements in terms of contact and study hours as laid down under an international standard (the Bologna process), then the credits will not be affected; if the hours drop, then the number of credits will fall. Reduction in IOT length may simply mean that another module has to be done towards the degree.
We now return you to some much more interesting observations...
Academic standards had certainly dropped for some of the non-University entrants who came to our squadron in the late 1980s.
As witness one who once piped up "You can't have a minus minus a plus!".
Ex-Harrovian, rich and thick and rather a 'Nice But Dim' type.
As witness one who once piped up "You can't have a minus minus a plus!".
Ex-Harrovian, rich and thick and rather a 'Nice But Dim' type.
It was a formality from then on. I was called for interview with the AOC of 221 Group in Calcutta, a kindly old AVM (Williams, I think) - Danny
Having succeeded - with some difficulty! - in refraining from commenting on a thread with such a "tempting" title for someone of the dark blue persuasion, here is a link to the man who should be most warmly congratulated for recognising Danny's officer-like qualities (OLQ)!, namely T M Williams_P, then in his early "kindly old" forties....
A Lancashire lad to boot, with a very distinguished and interesting career, not least relative to recent posts about attacking trains, and as a flight commander aged 18 with an MC and two DFCs - and four subsequent FAA appointments!
Sadly he did not live long enough to fulfil his undoubted potential.
Jack
Having succeeded - with some difficulty! - in refraining from commenting on a thread with such a "tempting" title for someone of the dark blue persuasion, here is a link to the man who should be most warmly congratulated for recognising Danny's officer-like qualities (OLQ)!, namely T M Williams_P, then in his early "kindly old" forties....
A Lancashire lad to boot, with a very distinguished and interesting career, not least relative to recent posts about attacking trains, and as a flight commander aged 18 with an MC and two DFCs - and four subsequent FAA appointments!
Sadly he did not live long enough to fulfil his undoubted potential.
Jack
I never understood why "distance learning" rather than "distant learning"?
Surely distance learning is learning about distance, whereas distant learning is learning at a distance?
Which latter is surely what happens.
innit?
Surely distance learning is learning about distance, whereas distant learning is learning at a distance?
Which latter is surely what happens.
innit?
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Waddington
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I notice from another post that there is currently an 18 - 24 month hold in store for baby pilots graduating from IOT. However, when speaking to some of the staff on a visit to CHOM last year I was informed that one of the main reasons the current IOT course was compressed from 30 weeks to 24 weeks was to get pilots (in particular) to the frontline much quicker in order to meet CAS' directive that he did not want new aircraft waiting for aircrew! I therefore cannot see the benefit of reducing IOT to speed up the pilot training pipeline if Ph2 is unable to cope - is it really that difficult to employ a JIT training system? Of course there may be other reasons as to why the course was shortened but I see little in the way of cost savings involved and the course does seem rather short when compared to BRNC's (30 weeks) and Sandhurst's (44 weeks) - although I recognise that each Service has its own particular requirements.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In the State of Denial
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 146 Likes
on
28 Posts
Twenty four weeks? What do they find to pad that out? The 18 weeks we did was more than enough given that it involved no professional training at all but was simply a series of hoops to jump through to ensure you deserved your commission, had a semblance of an idea of leadership (not something that's required all that often for aircrew for a few years) and knew how to behave (sort of) in the mess. The important stuff you learnt afterwards in your professional training.
Twenty four weeks? What do they find to pad that out? The 18 weeks we did was more than enough given that it involved no professional training at all but was simply a series of hoops to jump through to ensure you deserved your commission, had a semblance of an idea of leadership (not something that's required all that often for aircrew for a few years) and knew how to behave (sort of) in the mess. The important stuff you learnt afterwards in your professional training.
About 5 years back when I was in the middle of my Sqn Ldr command tour, we were hosting Commandant Cadets (IIRC) and we were talking over dinner about our time in the RAF, how we had both spent most of it in the Joint environment and had come through IOT when it was the 'bad old days', but how it had since changed for the better. He turned and asked what had I learned from my time at IOT. Peering into my wine glass for some inspiration as to how best to say what I was about to, I turned to him and said 'well based on what we've just been discussing, I have to say it showed me the sort of officer I didn't want to be once I'd graduated.' He thought about it, clearly not the expected answer and then said 'well at least you got something from it'.
As much as I hated my time at IOT, they really are missing a trick with not doing more academics - international relations, military theory and history etc, which invariably means a longer not shorter course. And I don't mean just more Operational Studies, or whatever it was called, where we all trooped into a warm room to fall asleep between PT sessions. I mean proper, intellectually rigorous stuff, that makes cadets it not fit for a complex environment, at least aware that they are going into a complex environment and gives them a foundation for where to take their conceptual development. Call me odd if you like, whilst leveling entire grid squares is fun, there's undeniably a degree of satisfaction in out-thinking the enemy - whether that be Russia, Da'esh, your Flt Cdr or your wife.
About 5 years back when I was in the middle of my Sqn Ldr command tour, we were hosting Commandant Cadets (IIRC) and we were talking over dinner about our time in the RAF, how we had both spent most of it in the Joint environment and had come through IOT when it was the 'bad old days', but how it had since changed for the better. He turned and asked what had I learned from my time at IOT. Peering into my wine glass for some inspiration as to how best to say what I was about to, I turned to him and said 'well based on what we've just been discussing, I have to say it showed me the sort of officer I didn't want to be once I'd graduated.' He thought about it, clearly not the expected answer and then said 'well at least you got something from it'.
As much as I hated my time at IOT, they really are missing a trick with not doing more academics - international relations, military theory and history etc, which invariably means a longer not shorter course. And I don't mean just more Operational Studies, or whatever it was called, where we all trooped into a warm room to fall asleep between PT sessions. I mean proper, intellectually rigorous stuff, that makes cadets it not fit for a complex environment, at least aware that they are going into a complex environment and gives them a foundation for where to take their conceptual development. Call me odd if you like, whilst leveling entire grid squares is fun, there's undeniably a degree of satisfaction in out-thinking the enemy - whether that be Russia, Da'esh, your Flt Cdr or your wife.
As much as I hated my time at IOT, they really are missing a trick with not doing more academics - international relations, military theory and history etc, which invariably means a longer not shorter course. And I don't mean just more Operational Studies, or whatever it was called, where we all trooped into a warm room to fall asleep between PT sessions. I mean proper, intellectually rigorous stuff, that makes cadets it not fit for a complex environment, at least aware that they are going into a complex environment and gives them a foundation for where to take their conceptual development. Call me odd if you like, whilst leveling entire grid squares is fun, there's undeniably a degree of satisfaction in out-thinking the enemy - whether that be Russia, Da'esh, your Flt Cdr or your wife.
Having been in the RAF for 23 years, and then a civilian instructor at a Ph2 trg unit for the last 12, I see both good and bad from the Ph1 system. IOT is still producing excellent individuals with character and potential but, sadly, it no longer really acts as a filter. So, we end up with a small percentage of individuals who are not suited to life in uniform. It is then left to the Ph2 machine to either make a silk purse out of a sow's ear or get them out of the system altogether. The emphasis is on 'training' which is as it should be but that must include an element of assessment. The latter seems to be missing to some degree from Ph1. That means that the minority who are a problem suck up most of the time and resources at Ph2 and 3, just like the gobby ones in a school class of 35 kids.
On another tack, we also have to take into account the 'kids' of today. Shortish attention span, no really long term commitment and requiring regular 'rewards'. As one Wg Cdr recently put it, the 'popcorn' generation.
So, I don't really think that the length of IOT is the issue. It is about making the best of what is available and weeding out the no-hopers at the Ph1 stage rather then maintaining the huggy/fluffy approach we seem to have.
Another area that leaves me open mouthed is the lack of leadership. We seem to now have offices full of very clever 'spreadsheet managers' and a large part of education comes from on-line courses. However, that is another story......
On another tack, we also have to take into account the 'kids' of today. Shortish attention span, no really long term commitment and requiring regular 'rewards'. As one Wg Cdr recently put it, the 'popcorn' generation.
So, I don't really think that the length of IOT is the issue. It is about making the best of what is available and weeding out the no-hopers at the Ph1 stage rather then maintaining the huggy/fluffy approach we seem to have.
Another area that leaves me open mouthed is the lack of leadership. We seem to now have offices full of very clever 'spreadsheet managers' and a large part of education comes from on-line courses. However, that is another story......
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Melchett,
Quite profound. I remember several by name and met two post IOT. One was a completely different character. There was however a nav, David St John Court-Smith, from whom I learnt much, a fine officer whose technique was light guidance rather than 'sheer terror'.
We had one cadet who accumulated more restrictions than the course length; he didn't graduate. Why did they persevere? Another, a particularly fine sprinter but as a cadet a complete wasock. He volunteered to be duty marcher as his blue webbing needed cleaning. When his white webbing turned green he reverted to blue. He was kept on until the inter-command athletics at White City. He didn't win and was chopped. Now THAT was an example of leadership
I have to say it showed me the sort of officer I didn't want to be once I'd graduated.'
We had one cadet who accumulated more restrictions than the course length; he didn't graduate. Why did they persevere? Another, a particularly fine sprinter but as a cadet a complete wasock. He volunteered to be duty marcher as his blue webbing needed cleaning. When his white webbing turned green he reverted to blue. He was kept on until the inter-command athletics at White City. He didn't win and was chopped. Now THAT was an example of leadership
