Back to Helmand Province 12 months on
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Back to Helmand Province 12 months on
Oh no! Here we go again.
Afghanistan Taliban: British military deployed to Helmand - BBC News
Surely we don't want to get involved in this conflict one more time.
Afghanistan Taliban: British military deployed to Helmand - BBC News
Surely we don't want to get involved in this conflict one more time.
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Wholly predictable unfortunately, in fact I'm surprised it's taken this long. We left too early when 'the job' wasn't finished. Not that I ever want to go back mind, I've spent far too much time there in the last 12 years already.
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No hindsight 20/20 required, was more US&A 'terrorist' b011acks from the off, the same terrorists they funded to fight the commies.
No one signs up to die for a worthless ****hole, same with Iraq.
Which companies profited from Afghanistan?
No one signs up to die for a worthless ****hole, same with Iraq.
Which companies profited from Afghanistan?
As to why the UK are going back in ... from the article ... they never really left?
They will not be in combat and are part of a larger Nato team, the MoD said. UK combat operations in Afghanistan ended last year, but about 450 troops remain in mentoring and support roles.
Hmmmm
Oh no! Here we go again.
Afghanistan Taliban: British military deployed to Helmand - BBC News
Surely we don't want to get involved in this conflict one more time.
Afghanistan Taliban: British military deployed to Helmand - BBC News
Surely we don't want to get involved in this conflict one more time.
Didn't see this coming at all did we?
I suppose I should count myself fortunate that I've come unscathed though three of the biggest foreign policy f**k ups this country has ever made (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya) unlike many others. I'm just thankful I'm not still in to get involved in the next one.
One thing that had always bothered me was that it was obvious to me , a mere Sgt, on my first Afg det in Feb 2002, that we weren't going anywhere and we were never going to 'win'. Surely it was obvious to CDS, CAS and just about every one else? Or were they more interested in honours, pensions, promotion, justifying the existence of their respective services.
True the politicians carry a fair amount of the blame for this mess, but our own leadership isn't completely blameless.
I suppose I should count myself fortunate that I've come unscathed though three of the biggest foreign policy f**k ups this country has ever made (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya) unlike many others. I'm just thankful I'm not still in to get involved in the next one.
One thing that had always bothered me was that it was obvious to me , a mere Sgt, on my first Afg det in Feb 2002, that we weren't going anywhere and we were never going to 'win'. Surely it was obvious to CDS, CAS and just about every one else? Or were they more interested in honours, pensions, promotion, justifying the existence of their respective services.
True the politicians carry a fair amount of the blame for this mess, but our own leadership isn't completely blameless.
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Foresight.24 months from now what wil be the situation?
What will happen now? According to some British newspapers the UK Special Forces are heavily engaged today in fighting in and around the town of Sangin.
Will this be the future for them? Will Britain continue to support this war>?
Many civilians (actually only me) were surprised by this move, to commit the UK back to Afghanistan. Thought it was all over.
Is it just perpetual civil war in Afghanistan, and UK plays a role in that?
Wasn't debated in Parliament before the recess, to my knowledge. But why should it be, in 21st century Britain? I sometimes think many are or have become shallow, inattentive and actually rather callous.
Will this be the future for them? Will Britain continue to support this war>?
Many civilians (actually only me) were surprised by this move, to commit the UK back to Afghanistan. Thought it was all over.
Is it just perpetual civil war in Afghanistan, and UK plays a role in that?
Wasn't debated in Parliament before the recess, to my knowledge. But why should it be, in 21st century Britain? I sometimes think many are or have become shallow, inattentive and actually rather callous.
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Let's hope the MSF hospital in Sangin isn't depending on American air "support".
Looking at the bigger picture, Rory Stewart addressed the bigger problem in this lecture.
Looking at the bigger picture, Rory Stewart addressed the bigger problem in this lecture.
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I would thoroughly recommend "An Intimate War" by Mike Martin, a Pashto speaking ex Army Officer who spent considerable time in Helmand. It's the Helmandi view and narrative of the last 30 odd years of the conflict there and it is very very different to how "we" perceive those events.
In essence they have used external players (communists, Soviets, NATO and even the "Taliban") to further their own power plays over land, water and lately drugs.
This is simply a continuation of this and will go on even if the Taliban take power.
Believe it or not the prevailing Helmandi view is that we the British were actually working with the Taliban (yes really!!!!) - because they can't believe that we would have been so stupid as to allow ourselves to be so manipulated. Go figure.
A worthwhile read for anyone who has been involved in Herrick - heavy going (I had to read it twice as it is so complex). It seems that those in charge of this decision haven't learned a thing.
In essence they have used external players (communists, Soviets, NATO and even the "Taliban") to further their own power plays over land, water and lately drugs.
This is simply a continuation of this and will go on even if the Taliban take power.
Believe it or not the prevailing Helmandi view is that we the British were actually working with the Taliban (yes really!!!!) - because they can't believe that we would have been so stupid as to allow ourselves to be so manipulated. Go figure.
A worthwhile read for anyone who has been involved in Herrick - heavy going (I had to read it twice as it is so complex). It seems that those in charge of this decision haven't learned a thing.
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People/politicians trying to convince us/themselves that these wars are noble and worthy of their sacrifice sets up a dangerous precedent. It shouldn't be allowed to happen again and those that sell it should be held to account.
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Didn't see this coming at all did we?
I suppose I should count myself fortunate that I've come unscathed though three of the biggest foreign policy f**k ups this country has ever made (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya) unlike many others. I'm just thankful I'm not still in to get involved in the next one.
One thing that had always bothered me was that it was obvious to me , a mere Sgt, on my first Afg det in Feb 2002, that we weren't going anywhere and we were never going to 'win'. Surely it was obvious to CDS, CAS and just about every one else? Or were they more interested in honours, pensions, promotion, justifying the existence of their respective services.
True the politicians carry a fair amount of the blame for this mess, but our own leadership isn't completely blameless.
I suppose I should count myself fortunate that I've come unscathed though three of the biggest foreign policy f**k ups this country has ever made (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya) unlike many others. I'm just thankful I'm not still in to get involved in the next one.
One thing that had always bothered me was that it was obvious to me , a mere Sgt, on my first Afg det in Feb 2002, that we weren't going anywhere and we were never going to 'win'. Surely it was obvious to CDS, CAS and just about every one else? Or were they more interested in honours, pensions, promotion, justifying the existence of their respective services.
True the politicians carry a fair amount of the blame for this mess, but our own leadership isn't completely blameless.
'There's no point allowing British troops to die abroad while our politicians refuse to defend our borders at home.'
Not my words, but kind of sums up the debacle of UK foreign policy - nothing to be gained, everything to be lost!
Not my words, but kind of sums up the debacle of UK foreign policy - nothing to be gained, everything to be lost!
Talking of British forces overseas at Christmas have a thought for our troops in Brunei. The sultan has banned Christmas and imposed a 5 year jail sentence for anyone caught celebrating it! Only 5yrs ago he was inviting rock stars over, now the 60% Muslim country has imposed sharia law with non-Muslims living in fear!
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Nothing new; I transitted Kuwait as a passenger shortly after we'd been to war "for their freedom". All newspapers, magazines and printed matter had to be collected in before doors opened to prevent any possibility of the population being contaminated by its being imported.
History repeating itself
I'm not ex-, or current- for that matter military. Firstly I offer my thoughts with due respect and gratitude for those who have fought, suffered and died in this exasperating conflict in the attempt to drag the place into something resembling a "normal" country. I have however been to Afghanistan for a few memorable weeks - in 1973, en route overland from UK to Oz - and I've read a small library of books on the country and its history, including Rory Stewart's.
I'd recommend anyone with the time and interest to read William Dalrymple's "Return of a King", his account of the first Afghan war which began in 1839 and ended in absolute disaster, the first of three futile engagements. The parallels with the current situation and the hopeless blunders that led to it are almost unbelievable. Of course given that the ethnic mix and tribal nature of Afghan society, combined with the ignorance of the politicians attempting to manage the conflict are little different today than they were >150 years ago, this is less surprising than it might be at first glance.
For an illustration of the political mis-management of the Afghan operation "Cables from Kabul" by Sherard Cowper-Coles (his name might lead you to guess that he was the former UK ambassador to Afghanistan) is a useful introduction - but not necessarily in the way the author may have intended. It's also well worth reading an account of the Soviet experience there such as "Afghantsy" by Rodrick Braithwaite and to recall that the Soviet installed government managed to hang on for a couple of years of civil war after the troop withdrawal despite having nothing resembling the resources we've donated to the current Afghan government - minus those that have been purloined or sold to the Taliban of course.
In the west's urgency to win the cold war we allowed vast amounts of resources to be poured into the very Afghan mujahedin groups who most despised everything we represent - just as much as they despised the "godless communists". These predominantly Pashtun groups - Hekmatyar's Hizbe Islami for one - were thereby the incubators of all that has followed, including the rise of both the Taliban and Al Quaeda - and, I would argue, I.S. This was easily forseeable in the early 80s.
I think that the attempt to create an effective central government in Afghanistan was doomed from its inception, for a host of interwoven reasons, not least of which is that Afghanistan has never really been a unitary state. The idea that the Afghan security forces, comprised as they are from an overwhelming majority of Tajik, Hazara and Uzbek personnel, could ever be regarded as anything but an occupying force in Pashtun regions, is preposterous. The original plan for creating the Afghan army was supposed to be demographically proportionate - ie at least 40% Pashtun. As far as I'm aware this was a fantasy which wasn't even close to being attained even at the officer level.
I imagine that anyone who has served in Afghanistan, particularly in Helmand, must be tearing their hair out in frustration whilst watching the place thrash itself to bits. And recall that it was only a few weeks ago that Kunduz, in the extreme north, non-Pashtun, region of the country was completely under the control of the insurgents for a while. It's hard to envisage anything but a total collapse of the central government other than in a situation where the Taliban (as we must call the by now diverse membership of the insurgency) negotiate a power-sharing agreement. Which might be the only way to keep "Islamic State" out of the country, and that not guaranteed.
I'd recommend anyone with the time and interest to read William Dalrymple's "Return of a King", his account of the first Afghan war which began in 1839 and ended in absolute disaster, the first of three futile engagements. The parallels with the current situation and the hopeless blunders that led to it are almost unbelievable. Of course given that the ethnic mix and tribal nature of Afghan society, combined with the ignorance of the politicians attempting to manage the conflict are little different today than they were >150 years ago, this is less surprising than it might be at first glance.
For an illustration of the political mis-management of the Afghan operation "Cables from Kabul" by Sherard Cowper-Coles (his name might lead you to guess that he was the former UK ambassador to Afghanistan) is a useful introduction - but not necessarily in the way the author may have intended. It's also well worth reading an account of the Soviet experience there such as "Afghantsy" by Rodrick Braithwaite and to recall that the Soviet installed government managed to hang on for a couple of years of civil war after the troop withdrawal despite having nothing resembling the resources we've donated to the current Afghan government - minus those that have been purloined or sold to the Taliban of course.
In the west's urgency to win the cold war we allowed vast amounts of resources to be poured into the very Afghan mujahedin groups who most despised everything we represent - just as much as they despised the "godless communists". These predominantly Pashtun groups - Hekmatyar's Hizbe Islami for one - were thereby the incubators of all that has followed, including the rise of both the Taliban and Al Quaeda - and, I would argue, I.S. This was easily forseeable in the early 80s.
I think that the attempt to create an effective central government in Afghanistan was doomed from its inception, for a host of interwoven reasons, not least of which is that Afghanistan has never really been a unitary state. The idea that the Afghan security forces, comprised as they are from an overwhelming majority of Tajik, Hazara and Uzbek personnel, could ever be regarded as anything but an occupying force in Pashtun regions, is preposterous. The original plan for creating the Afghan army was supposed to be demographically proportionate - ie at least 40% Pashtun. As far as I'm aware this was a fantasy which wasn't even close to being attained even at the officer level.
I imagine that anyone who has served in Afghanistan, particularly in Helmand, must be tearing their hair out in frustration whilst watching the place thrash itself to bits. And recall that it was only a few weeks ago that Kunduz, in the extreme north, non-Pashtun, region of the country was completely under the control of the insurgents for a while. It's hard to envisage anything but a total collapse of the central government other than in a situation where the Taliban (as we must call the by now diverse membership of the insurgency) negotiate a power-sharing agreement. Which might be the only way to keep "Islamic State" out of the country, and that not guaranteed.
Last edited by skridlov; 24th Dec 2015 at 17:39. Reason: addition