Answer yes or no to the RAF bombing Syria this coming week.
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Why the yoghurt-knitting Guardianista seem to think that there will be so many civilian casualties is beyond me - they obviously still think we're using SNEB rocket packs, cluster weapons and iron bombs - idiots!
There is ALWAYS collateral damage, a fact of war that should be taken into account. My concern that it will encourage the collateral to spread to the UK.
And just who do we want to win in the end? I know who I want but I'm not sure UK Gov has got the balls to agree...
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Well, given all the hype of recent days, people could be excused for thinking something important has happened. The I see it is: twice the area + more targets than Iraq + same number of aircraft = half the effect.
But to increase assets in Shader risks the Libyan trap of pushing everything forward for the 'big push' in the expectation of a short campaign only to find it isn't and sustainability becomes a huge problem.
I wonder if anyone at MoD is thinking that this could be a, say, 3 year campaign and to set the pace of ops, assets and resources accordingly for a long haul.
But to increase assets in Shader risks the Libyan trap of pushing everything forward for the 'big push' in the expectation of a short campaign only to find it isn't and sustainability becomes a huge problem.
I wonder if anyone at MoD is thinking that this could be a, say, 3 year campaign and to set the pace of ops, assets and resources accordingly for a long haul.
Anyone remember Southern Watch? 10+ years of sniping at the edges of the Iraqi regime. Of course that was when we had more than 5 front line GR sqns!
Atomkraft - lay off the gluesniffing... The public voted in this government - it is therefore the people's will that we fight back against threats to our country
Atomkraft - lay off the gluesniffing... The public voted in this government - it is therefore the people's will that we fight back against threats to our country
Well, we are where we are ... I just hope that everyone flies safe and that there has been equally as much planning (if not more) for the retrieval of downed aircrew 'sausage side'.
NB. This is just a wish ... we don't need details here.
NB. This is just a wish ... we don't need details here.
"The public voted in this government - it is therefore the people's will that we fight back against threats to our country"
A common misconception : the present government was voted for by a minority of the electorate ( PR would address this).
Recent opinion polls show that the majority of the electorate do not support our involvement in Syria.
Never let the facts interfer with people's opinion.
A common misconception : the present government was voted for by a minority of the electorate ( PR would address this).
Recent opinion polls show that the majority of the electorate do not support our involvement in Syria.
Never let the facts interfer with people's opinion.
LJ:-
When you become the beloved leader, no doubt, Leon. Meanwhile God speed our aircrew, and indeed all members of the coalition, engaged upon their dangerous business.
PS. I also believe there is a special gate for the 'no' voters in the Tower of London and it begins with a 'T'...
Atomkraft, if you'd have bothered reading through the thread, you would have found plenty of 'No' voters with reasoned arguments. The yes voters in the main also used reasoned arguments rather than the love of 'bombing' people.
Simple really.
Simple really.
AtomKraft and other sceptics - google Hilary Benn's speech - listen to it and then say we are doing the wrong thing by taking the fight to the enemy!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
"The public voted in this government - it is therefore the people's will that we fight back against threats to our country"
A common misconception : the present government was voted for by a minority of the electorate ( PR would address this).
Recent opinion polls show that the majority of the electorate do not support our involvement in Syria.
Never let the facts interfer with people's opinion.
A common misconception : the present government was voted for by a minority of the electorate ( PR would address this).
Recent opinion polls show that the majority of the electorate do not support our involvement in Syria.
Never let the facts interfer with people's opinion.
Where you are incorrect is that 64% of our representatives voted for the resolution. If we subtract the SNP who were 100% against we find that 70% of the English, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs of all parties voted for the resolution. That 7 Conservative MPs voted against is democracy.
The vote was a cross-party democratic one by our representatives.
If you voted then they represented your views, like it or not. If you did not vote . . .
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Haart, your argument is valid if all weapons are expended on every sortie over Iraq. If weapons are not always expended then an increase in the number of potential targets of opportunity in Syria will not halve the effort.
I don't know, nor do I seek to find out, what proportion of sorties do not drop weapons.
I don't know, nor do I seek to find out, what proportion of sorties do not drop weapons.
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Whether it is right to bomb ISIS is not the point. Some western governments refuse to learn the lessons of the last 12 years. This present situation was caused by strategic and political blunders in invading Iraq in the first place. Then compounding the situation by getting rid of the Sunni elite from positions of power. Having said that, a homegrown Scottish war criminal was complicit in his sycophantic support of American foreign policy. We were chased out of Basra with our tails between our legs and ground down in Afghanistan. So what will now change? Does anyone really think that ISIS have not assessed Cameron and Obama? ISIS have nothing to fear from these 2. You can send all the bombers and high tech weapons you like, but when your politicians are weak opportunists you are going to lose eventually. All ISIS have to do is keep fighting an asymmetrical war against the west and they will win. Eventually we will sue for peace, or try to find a way out of this mess. History, time and again proves this. My view does not detract from the bravery of the professional airmen of The RAF and allied air forces. These men and women deserve better. I just hope they return to their families safe and well. Time and again over the last decade or so, dedicated, brave, men and women,have paid with their lives because of decisions made by pathetic specimens in Washington and London. Our armed forces deserve better.
Last edited by kapton; 3rd Dec 2015 at 09:04. Reason: Change word
P-N I heard a figure quoted on TV yesterday that weapons had been used on approximately a quarter of Tornado missions over Iraq in the last year (c 400 out of 1600) .
I have no idea of the source of this figure, or its accuracy, but it seems credible to me.
I have no idea of the source of this figure, or its accuracy, but it seems credible to me.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
kapton, correct, it is a question of targets.
In Iraq our target was the leadership; their target was our public opinion. Now we have no viable leadership at which to aim; their target remains our public opinion.
In Iraq our target was the leadership; their target was our public opinion. Now we have no viable leadership at which to aim; their target remains our public opinion.
Eventually we will sue for peace, or try to find a way out of this mess
What we are trying to do now is find a way out of the mess and the bombing will be a very small (but necessary) part of it. If the bombing is simply a delaying tactic which just slows down the spread of ISIS, it will have served its purpose.
Whilst we try to contain them miitarily, other tactics can be deployed; economic, diplomatic, religious, cyber etc etc but anything that can be done NOW to degrade their capabilities must be done.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, thank you. I believe the potential target area is double the size (a guess), so given your figure, the current number of weapons systems would seem adequate.
Decision Taken
Surely ladies and gentlemen now that the go option has been democratically voted for, the only response on this forum should be the unequivocal support of our crews tasked with this thankless business.
To quote Dave Allen, 'may their god go with them' and for heavens sake lets hope all in Cyprus are more than alert to possible incursions
To quote Dave Allen, 'may their god go with them' and for heavens sake lets hope all in Cyprus are more than alert to possible incursions
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Votes - I cherish our democracy, despite some arguable weaknesses (PR etc). Yesterday's session was for the opposition to lose; they managed that in spades. The decision to bomb was not due to the strength of the Conservative Right, it was due to the complete ineffectiveness of Labour, et al. Ironically Corbyn, a Stop the War stalwart, has much to answer for here in his complete inability to motivate, lead, mobilise and unite.
Labour need to get rid of him fast and put someone in his place who can at least present an argument.
Labour need to get rid of him fast and put someone in his place who can at least present an argument.
unequivocal support of our crews
complete ineffectiveness of Labour
Anyhow, it's done. lets get on with it.
PS. I also believe there is a special gate for the 'no' voters in the Tower of London and it begins with a 'T'...
I though that UK was a Democracy where people get to exercise Free Will.
Indicating that if you don't vote for a Government on its latest exercise overseas makes you a traitor then UK has a real problem.