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Air To Air..... Helicopter vs FJ

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Air To Air..... Helicopter vs FJ

Old 24th Nov 2015, 11:33
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Air To Air..... Helicopter vs FJ

It would appear that US Army Helicopters are not easy Pickings for Fighter Pilots....in any kind of fight.

That is unless it is a Rank Hungry Colonel in the Lead FJ looking to bag some Iraqi Helicopters that looked amazingly like Army Blackhawks.

http://www.wearethemighty.com/articl...ck-helicopters
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Old 24th Nov 2015, 12:06
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We (RAF) used to carry out "fighter evasion" exercises and probably still do, although the exercise name changed to "fighter affiliation" at a later date. There was no FJ fighter that could turn tighter than a helicopter in the hover, or flying at very low speed. Helicopters can also stop and hide behind things...

Some F-4 pilots (who usually couldn't even see us to take a shot, whereas their smoky exhaust trails made them stand out miles away) used to claim that if they couldn't shoot us down, they would attempt to "knock us out of the air" by overflying low level at Mach 1. Not sure how they could do that when they didn't even see us. We could, of course, land anyway...and an armed helicopter could still shoot upwards.

Most experienced Harrier pilots I spoke to said that they probably wouldn't waste time and fuel trying to dog fight with a helicopter as an opportunistic target and if they knew it was likely to have a shoot back capability they would not risk getting mixed up with it.

A slow speed, highly manoeuvrable turboprop aircraft would have more chance of a shoot, hence the Pucara. The Warsaw Pact also developed the Frogfoot, possibly also a different kettle of fish, especially if the pilots were well trained/experienced and able to hunt in packs.
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Old 24th Nov 2015, 12:23
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Me not military but a lurker (so apologies). My father's cousin flew Austers in the Second World War in North Africa and then Normandy as an artillery observer. They evaded fighters by flying low and turning tightly. He said the Luftwaffe fighters' tactic was not to try to shoot them down but to overfly the Auster at high speed and then pull up, hoping to force the Auster down into the ground with their slipstream.
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Old 24th Nov 2015, 13:17
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Been round this one before.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...s-v-helis.html
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Old 24th Nov 2015, 13:34
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On leave from Odiham one summer in Pitlochry with the future Mrs P whilst a QHTI Cse was going on at Leuchars. We'd just finished a pleasant walk along the Tummel to Killiekrankie and back and were enjoying an ice cream down by the river just north of the dam, the peace being disturbed by 2 F3's doing a fairly lowish CAP overhead.
I'd just finished explaining what they were up to and had just said 'they're probably looking for someone' when 2 18Sqn cabs popped up over the dam and disappeared off in the direction of Blair Atholl whilst the F3's carried on with their up and down, round and round stuff. Couldn't have timed it better.

Mind you, it could have been totally unconnected or maybe they'd claimed a skyflash shot!
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Old 24th Nov 2015, 19:55
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As with most engagements, whomever gets first detection has the edge. Beyond that, the other thread has ample discussion to offer on detail.
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Old 24th Nov 2015, 20:19
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On Jan. 13, 2012, at Bagram Airfield, Afghanistan, the F-15E Strike Eagle #89-0487 became the only Strike Eagle to have had a successful air-to-air kill and the only F-15 to have logged more than 10,000 hours of flying time.

In fact, in Jan. 1991, the same plane piloted by Capt. Tim Bennet and WSO Capt. Dan Bakke, destroyed a flying Iraqi Mi-24 helicopter with a 2,000-lb GBU-10 [email protected] Guided Bomb in the only credited F-15E air-to-air kill recorded so far.
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Old 25th Nov 2015, 01:07
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Dropping a 2000 pound bomb on a helicopter sounds like
something out of a B movie.


Effective though
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Old 25th Nov 2015, 12:16
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Wasn't David Morgan credited with a kill over an Argentine Puma which lost control and crashed after he made a high speed run at it in 1982?
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Old 25th Nov 2015, 12:38
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Part of our course on the Lynx OFT was Fighter Evasion and I recall being taken up in the backseat of a Harrier to observe it from the FJ's perspective as they went hunting for helicopters in the Welsh mountains.
As I recall apart from one Lynx that crossed the valley and 'skylined' himself, they were in the main very hard to spot and engage, even in something as agile as a Harrier.
Relatively easy to spot and call the threat from the helicopter though when down that low. I always did wonder though if any FJ's would really bother to try to engage a helicopter in a hostile environment....clearly some do !
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Old 25th Nov 2015, 12:58
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Wasn't David Morgan credited with a kill over an Argentine Puma which lost control and crashed after he made a high speed run at it in 1982?
Falklands: The Air War

Puma AE503: 23/5/82.

3 x Puma and 1 x A-109 engaged in vicinity of Shag Cove House.

........"Rather than be exposed over water for a lengthy time they had crossed Falkland Sound at its narrowest point opposite Shag Cove House and were just turning north-eastwards towards Port Howard when Dave Morgan saw the lead helicopter........ Morgan's first pass caused the pilot of AE503 to take violent avoiding action and head for the relative safety of the nearest shore. Unfortunately, the pilot's desperate manoeuvres (possibly made worse by turbulent wake from the Sea Harrier) caused him to lose control of the helicopter, which then crash landed on a hillside. Fortunately, the crew had just enough time to scramble clear before it caught fire and exploded."

The A-109 and a second Puma were destroyed y cannon fire on the ground, the last escaped.

So, 3 out of 4 in one engagement. Maybe not as impossible as described.....
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Old 25th Nov 2015, 20:59
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Quote:
Wasn't David Morgan credited with a kill over an Argentine Puma which lost control and crashed after he made a high speed run at it in 1982?


ORAC

Falklands: The Air War

Puma AE503: 23/5/82.

3 x Puma and 1 x A-109 engaged in vicinity of Shag Cove House.

........"Rather than be exposed over water for a lengthy time they had crossed Falkland Sound at its narrowest point opposite Shag Cove House and were just turning north-eastwards towards Port Howard when Dave Morgan saw the lead helicopter........ Morgan's first pass caused the pilot of AE503 to take violent avoiding action and head for the relative safety of the nearest shore. Unfortunately, the pilot's desperate manoeuvres (possibly made worse by turbulent wake from the Sea Harrier) caused him to lose control of the helicopter, which then crash landed on a hillside. Fortunately, the crew had just enough time to scramble clear before it caught fire and exploded."

The A-109 and a second Puma were destroyed y cannon fire on the ground, the last escaped.

So, 3 out of 4 in one engagement. Maybe not as impossible as described.....
I just pulled Dave Morgan's "Hostile Skies" book from my shelf and re-read page 190-197 on the helo encounter and shoot down. page 192 on the first Puma "...I could not depress the gunsight enough to strafe it without hitting the ground myself. Instead I flew straight at it, passing as low as I dared over its rotor head...passed about 10 feet...it crashed heavily... we had discussed about using wing tip vortices...obviously worked..."

Then the "gunship" 109 on pages 193-195, Morgan and wingman John Leeming make several passes, "off no-hit" passes as the 109 ran up a dry river bed, on Morgans third pass "one second burst...hail of sparkling explosions.. massive orange bloom..." The 109 had been flying. Morgan had respect for the ability of the armed 109.

page 195: "Then John called that he had located a further helicopter (Puma) which had landed and shut down.." Lemming was out of ammo. Morgan took several passes to find the help- very hard to pick out from the terrain. Finally he acquired, pulled the trigger and heard a "pop-pop as my two reaming rounds fired..." "Learned later...one of my last two rounds had hit the tail pylon of the Puma, rendering it unflyable.." The aircraft was straffed and destroyed by the relief CAP a few minutes later.

So two were flying.

On page 194 Morgan also talks about the helicopter "rat and terrier" hunting method they had developed years earlier where one FJ would always keep visual.

A great read. Highly recommended.
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Old 25th Nov 2015, 21:31
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Oh, purlease, mechanical palm trees are my kind of target. Here are a few examples...

6 Feb 1991
USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Bo-105
A USAF A-10 ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

7 Feb 1991 USN F-14 vs. IRAF Mi-8
A USN F-14 shoots down an IRAF Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile. It is the last USN F-14 air-to-air kill

11 Feb 1991 USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF helicopters
Two F-15Cs shoot down two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles for both.

14 Feb 1991 USAF F-15E vs. IRAF Hughes 500
An F-15E Strike Eagle fighter/bomber dropped a [email protected] bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. The helicopter was on the ground initially loading up commandos, though it took off. Even with it taking off they left the [email protected] on it and the bomb hit it when it was "200 or so" feet in the air.

15 Feb 1991 USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Mi-8
An A-10A ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

In 1978, a Soviet Mig-23 Flogger intercepted 4 Iranian CH-47 Chinook helicopters inside Soviet airspace, shooting one of them down and damaging another.

In 1988, two Soviet Mig-23 Floggers shot down a pair of Iranian AH-1J Super Cobra attack helicopters over western Afghanistan.

On 7 January 1992, an Italian Army Bell 206 helicopter was shot down by a Serbian MiG in Croatia.
I can always remember flying with CBFI in a F3 and teaching him CW boresight shots with a Skyflash against the Chinny. The distance between the jet and the helo at missile time out was about 2-3 miles and then listening to the crewman with the dodgy northern accent then calling 'snapshot guns' as we looked at him through the rotor-blade arcs of his mighty wokka - I am sure his pilot would have been delighted he had just simulated shooting his rotorblades off!

Once in the fight then turning with the helo was a mugs' game unless you used the vertical. Getting ASRAAM made the helicopter so easy to get a valid shot against in later years compared to the older Aim-9. However, the choice of champions was a bit of air to ground strafe that we all practiced for and during Op DENY FLIGHT - the only annoying thing was to find a HIP, ask for instructions from the CAOC and then get told to 'shadow' until you ran out of fuel and had to go to the tanker 25 minutes later.

I also know of a Winnebago kill in the Nevada Desert by a FJ following a high speed low level pass on the edge of the supersonic area. The result was the Winnebago was dragged of the road and rolled along for a few hundred feet in the supersonic wake. I can't imagine a wokka doing very well either in that sort of shockwave whilst flying 'nap of the earth'. If anyone has a piccie of the Winnebago then please post it as I've always wondered what it looked like!

LJ
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