Breaking news on Sky.....
I've been unwell for a few days so haven't been keeping up with this thread. I've had a quick read through, but apologise if this point has already been covered.
Re shooting aircrew in their parachutes from the ground. There is plenty of evidence that this practice was at the very least not unknown in WW2. A famous example of course is Flt Lt James Nicholson, who won the only Victoria Cross for the Battle of Britain. After bailing out from his burning Hurricane over Hampshire, Nicholson was fired on as he landed by a Home Guard who mistook him for a German, and sustained shotgun wounds to add to his burns. Not sure what the policy was, although I'm sure shooting on your own side was not permitted!
More seriously I have read a comment from a WW2 fighter pilot (I wish I could remember the reference) that he couldn't fault German pilots who fired on British aircrew as they descended by parachute over the UK, as they could be back up flying within hours and thus could be considered fair game. Whether this opinion was widely held I dont know, but at least it demonstrates that the practice is not some new barbaric product of the current hostilities.
Re shooting aircrew in their parachutes from the ground. There is plenty of evidence that this practice was at the very least not unknown in WW2. A famous example of course is Flt Lt James Nicholson, who won the only Victoria Cross for the Battle of Britain. After bailing out from his burning Hurricane over Hampshire, Nicholson was fired on as he landed by a Home Guard who mistook him for a German, and sustained shotgun wounds to add to his burns. Not sure what the policy was, although I'm sure shooting on your own side was not permitted!
More seriously I have read a comment from a WW2 fighter pilot (I wish I could remember the reference) that he couldn't fault German pilots who fired on British aircrew as they descended by parachute over the UK, as they could be back up flying within hours and thus could be considered fair game. Whether this opinion was widely held I dont know, but at least it demonstrates that the practice is not some new barbaric product of the current hostilities.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,819
Received 2,795 Likes
on
1,190 Posts
Phil R combat troops I.e Paras are legitimate targets. See the link I posted earlier.
Possibly the main reason Russia is getting embroiled.
Syria, Turkey, Israel and a Greater Middle East Energy War, by F. William Engdahl
One should imagine this is all a big poker game by Putin, lose the gas income and his position is then tenuous and he will be gone, so he is forced into a never ending upward spiralling course of action to maintain his position.
.
Possibly the main reason Russia is getting embroiled.
Syria, Turkey, Israel and a Greater Middle East Energy War, by F. William Engdahl
One should imagine this is all a big poker game by Putin, lose the gas income and his position is then tenuous and he will be gone, so he is forced into a never ending upward spiralling course of action to maintain his position.
.
Last edited by NutLoose; 26th Nov 2015 at 13:16.
Russian pilot being rescued by Hezbollah
More seriously I have read a comment from a WW2 fighter pilot (I wish I could remember the reference) that he couldn't fault German pilots who fired on British aircrew as they descended by parachute over the UK, as they could be back up flying within hours and thus could be considered fair game.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North West
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NutLoose
And you are assuming they came down in the same point, and that the survivor was uninjured, the front line could be metres apart and he could of been carried back from the front, his friend couldn't because he was murdered before he hit the ground. You are aware seats do not come out the same side at the same time, no probably not.
Hey Mensa, I'm not assuming anything. I simply said one got away and asked you why the second didn't?
And you are assuming they came down in the same point, and that the survivor was uninjured, the front line could be metres apart and he could of been carried back from the front, his friend couldn't because he was murdered before he hit the ground. You are aware seats do not come out the same side at the same time, no probably not.
Hey Mensa, I'm not assuming anything. I simply said one got away and asked you why the second didn't?
.......
By the way, I see now why the rough ride... I'd, unwittingly, equated the shooting of helpless parachutists with all who deposit ordinance on those below even though I qualified my point in that the equality was that the targetted couldn't hit back at their assailants. I was thinking of this local border clash and didn't realise I was painting all air force pilots with that same brush. I guess that hit the wrong target?
More seriously I have read a comment from a WW2 fighter pilot (I wish I could remember the reference) that he couldn't fault German pilots who fired on British aircrew as they descended by parachute over the UK, as they could be back up flying within hours and thus could be considered fair game.
The pilot's name was Hugh Dowding and when he said it to Churchill, Winston was gobsmacked. Goring did suggest such an action as policy to his Fighter wing leaders during the Battle of Britain, and the Fighter commanders refused point blank to even think of doing it.
BBC reporting Pilot claims Turkey never issued warnings
They were first warned on 6th October
Nato condemns Russia over violations of Turkey's airspace | World news | The Guardian
They continued to deliberately violate NATO's airspace on multiple further occasions, each time with formal protest from Turkey.
Russia is NOT the West's ally, their primary goal is to destroy NATO by proving its a cowardly feeble organisation who will not defend itself.
NATO did exactly what it had to do in case (and matching its public statements) of an unconventional attack by Russia... unflinching self defence.
NATO has to do the same thing to the Russians in the Baltic's, Putin will back off. Its the only thing they understand.
Last edited by peter we; 26th Nov 2015 at 05:54.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Here and there. Here at the moment but soon I'll be there.
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is an interesting ANNA News (Russian) video about the SU-24 pilot rescue.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c3f_1448503622
Interesting that they report that the missile which hit the SU-24 was travelling west to east.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c3f_1448503622
Interesting that they report that the missile which hit the SU-24 was travelling west to east.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Here and there. Here at the moment but soon I'll be there.
Posts: 758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even the US State Dept. spokesman dos not condemn the shooting of the parachuting Russian Air Force crewman...."They have every right to defend themselves". Not a very clever thing to say IMHO.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=220_1448493848
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=220_1448493848
Was it ISIS or Turkmen who destroyed the rescue helicopter?
Watch this video of the destruction of the Russian rescue helicopter. At 22 sec, you can see that one of the operators is wearing what appears to be an ISIS T-shirt.
22.Saniye T?örte Dikkat Rus Helikopterini Vuran Türkmen De?il I??D Ç?kt?
If they were ISIS affiliates, it does rather beg the question what they were doing with sophisticated US-supplied weapons.
22.Saniye T?örte Dikkat Rus Helikopterini Vuran Türkmen De?il I??D Ç?kt?
If they were ISIS affiliates, it does rather beg the question what they were doing with sophisticated US-supplied weapons.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 4 Civvy Street. Nowhere-near-a-base. The Shires.
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
All this talk of legitimate targets is all very well, and I totally believe in LOAC.
However, I doubt whether bands of border tribesmen in a backward part of the globe have ever heard of it, let alone signed in Geneva to fight under its rules.
However, I doubt whether bands of border tribesmen in a backward part of the globe have ever heard of it, let alone signed in Geneva to fight under its rules.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'They continued to deliberately violate NATO's airspace on multiple further occasions, each time with formal protest from Turkey.'
All of this is completely different to Turkey shelling the Kurds in Syria as they have done for many years?
All of this is completely different to Turkey shelling the Kurds in Syria as they have done for many years?
Hey Mensa, I'm not assuming anything. I simply said one got away and asked you why the second didn't?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,819
Received 2,795 Likes
on
1,190 Posts
Not by me I may add.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 91
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Intercept
Back to the point - I think it was an AIM 120 kill - For the following reasons -
If it was an Aim 9L shot or M/P the F16 would have had to been V close at 20,000 with 5 mies approx - I don't think even the coolest F16 pilot could have put himself in that toe of Airspace and got a sot hoping the SU24 would land on Turkish Airspace - which It didn't
My feeling was the F16 locked the SU24 as it was tracking towards the border - Fired - Broke lock and the SU24 continued into the slammer unaware
I have also see the result of an AIM 9 kill the warhead effectively chopped the rear of the jet off - The images of the stricken SU24 look like a hit centre fuselage and causing a fuel tank fire - Not an expanding rod warhead hit near the back end
If it was an Aim 9L shot or M/P the F16 would have had to been V close at 20,000 with 5 mies approx - I don't think even the coolest F16 pilot could have put himself in that toe of Airspace and got a sot hoping the SU24 would land on Turkish Airspace - which It didn't
My feeling was the F16 locked the SU24 as it was tracking towards the border - Fired - Broke lock and the SU24 continued into the slammer unaware
I have also see the result of an AIM 9 kill the warhead effectively chopped the rear of the jet off - The images of the stricken SU24 look like a hit centre fuselage and causing a fuel tank fire - Not an expanding rod warhead hit near the back end
Back to the point - I think it was an AIM 120 kill - For the following reasons -
If it was an Aim 9L shot or M/P the F16 would have had to been V close at 20,000 with 5 mies approx - I don't think even the coolest F16 pilot could have put himself in that toe of Airspace and got a sot hoping the SU24 would land on Turkish Airspace - which It didn't
My feeling was the F16 locked the SU24 as it was tracking towards the border - Fired - Broke lock and the SU24 continued into the slammer unaware
I have also see the result of an AIM 9 kill the warhead effectively chopped the rear of the jet off - The images of the stricken SU24 look like a hit centre fuselage and causing a fuel tank fire - Not an expanding rod warhead hit near the back end
If it was an Aim 9L shot or M/P the F16 would have had to been V close at 20,000 with 5 mies approx - I don't think even the coolest F16 pilot could have put himself in that toe of Airspace and got a sot hoping the SU24 would land on Turkish Airspace - which It didn't
My feeling was the F16 locked the SU24 as it was tracking towards the border - Fired - Broke lock and the SU24 continued into the slammer unaware
I have also see the result of an AIM 9 kill the warhead effectively chopped the rear of the jet off - The images of the stricken SU24 look like a hit centre fuselage and causing a fuel tank fire - Not an expanding rod warhead hit near the back end
https://twitter.com/CombatAir/status/669102967245664256
