SDSR rumours.
re: Tornado retirement:
3rd Sqn to run on until 2018
Last 2 Sqns to close in 2019
That's on current plans and with the P3E package being rolled out and Combat Ready on a Typhoon Sqn. I guess we'll wait and see.
The other Tornado operators will run the PA200 until 2025, so there will still be Tonkas flying abroad.
LJ
3rd Sqn to run on until 2018
Last 2 Sqns to close in 2019
That's on current plans and with the P3E package being rolled out and Combat Ready on a Typhoon Sqn. I guess we'll wait and see.
The other Tornado operators will run the PA200 until 2025, so there will still be Tonkas flying abroad.
LJ
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/188squadron.cfm
It also featured as a Lancaster Sqn in Reaching for the Stars.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Looking through Jeff Jefford's book on RAF Squadrons it is noticeable that for some reason the Air Ministry missed out No.188 Squadron during the Second World War.
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...he-lucky-dogs/
......
No. 188 Squadron was reformed on the 5th April, 1939, and equipped with the Hawker Hurricane Mk. I. They were based at Shoreham Airfield, West Sussex on the South Coast of England. When war broke out two flights were dispatched to France to serve alongside the British Expeditionary Force. They fought through the Battle of France until they were withdrawn to their homebase of Shoreham in late May 1940. Here they were reequipped recieved replacement pilots after their losses in France - interestingly the replcaement pilots were drawn from Norweigian & Swedish aviators; the former exiles from their home country, the latter volunteers who had come to Britain to fight.
From 10th July 1940 to 31st October 1940 they fought steadfastly through what was to become known as the Battle of Britain. The squadron accounted for no less than 44 victories during the battle, most of which were Heinkel He-111's, but they also suffered themselves. During the entire Battle they lost eight aircraft destroyed and five pilots killed, three of those planes and two of the pilots were lost on 'The Hardest Day', 18th August 1940.
From 1941-1943 the squadron fought in North Africa, having been equipped with the Mk. IIB (Trop). During the invasion of Italy they were reequipped with the Spitfire Mk. IXB until they returned to England in May 1944. They were part of the Allied air support for the Normandy Landings and from July 1944 - May 1945 they often flew escort for Allied bombers.
No. 188 Squadron was disbanded in March 1946.
Interesting to observe, once again, the reactions here to a SDSR announcement which is so strong on equipment and so weak on personnel issues. Like the MPA/P-8 thread, folk seem to be more concerned which sqn number plates will be painted on the hardware and whether they will be light or dark blue than the huge operational and manning debate that will follow.
One thing that is correctly stated here is that number plates result from VSOs' personal wishes and has nothing to do in any rules of sqn seniority.
To my mind, the hardware will arrive over time and there are going to be some very busy people in Air Command getting the sites ready with all the ground equipment, supplies/spares, expendibles, vehicles, airframe allocations, servicing scheduling, electronic and software support, accommodation, working and briefing facilities, test and calibration equipment.... And on and on. Big work ahead, which I think will be both challenging and interesting.
Then the job I wouldn't want - getting the manning right within the limitations of current numbers, Ts & Cs and a massively dismantled training system. Pre-SDSR I could kind of see where the numbers were going to come from as, for example, Tranche 1 Typhoons are replaced by later ones and as Tornado phases out and F-35 starts to build. I think that would probably have been tight. Now add the extra aircraft (Typhoon, F-35, P-8, C-130 extension, F-35 roll-out) and 300 extra people with an acceptance that folk won't stay as long and I can't see how this is going to work. The only hope is that this plan is one that will take a very long time to play out.
Admittedly, I haven't really sat down and worked out what the airframe numbers will be year by year, but it all looks like a bit of a steep climb from where we are.
But I'm still delighted for the UK's military aviation community to read the SDSR document (apart from some of the meaningless political aspiration sections).
Sorry I've rambled on a bit.
One thing that is correctly stated here is that number plates result from VSOs' personal wishes and has nothing to do in any rules of sqn seniority.
To my mind, the hardware will arrive over time and there are going to be some very busy people in Air Command getting the sites ready with all the ground equipment, supplies/spares, expendibles, vehicles, airframe allocations, servicing scheduling, electronic and software support, accommodation, working and briefing facilities, test and calibration equipment.... And on and on. Big work ahead, which I think will be both challenging and interesting.
Then the job I wouldn't want - getting the manning right within the limitations of current numbers, Ts & Cs and a massively dismantled training system. Pre-SDSR I could kind of see where the numbers were going to come from as, for example, Tranche 1 Typhoons are replaced by later ones and as Tornado phases out and F-35 starts to build. I think that would probably have been tight. Now add the extra aircraft (Typhoon, F-35, P-8, C-130 extension, F-35 roll-out) and 300 extra people with an acceptance that folk won't stay as long and I can't see how this is going to work. The only hope is that this plan is one that will take a very long time to play out.
Admittedly, I haven't really sat down and worked out what the airframe numbers will be year by year, but it all looks like a bit of a steep climb from where we are.
But I'm still delighted for the UK's military aviation community to read the SDSR document (apart from some of the meaningless political aspiration sections).
Sorry I've rambled on a bit.
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.p...he-lucky-dogs/
......
No. 188 Squadron was reformed on the 5th April, 1939, and equipped with the Hawker Hurricane Mk. I. They were based at Shoreham Airfield, West Sussex on the South Coast of England. When war broke out two flights were dispatched to France to serve alongside the British Expeditionary Force. They fought through the Battle of France until they were withdrawn to their homebase of Shoreham in late May 1940. Here they were reequipped recieved replacement pilots after their losses in France - interestingly the replcaement pilots were drawn from Norweigian & Swedish aviators; the former exiles from their home country, the latter volunteers who had come to Britain to fight.
From 10th July 1940 to 31st October 1940 they fought steadfastly through what was to become known as the Battle of Britain. The squadron accounted for no less than 44 victories during the battle, most of which were Heinkel He-111's, but they also suffered themselves. During the entire Battle they lost eight aircraft destroyed and five pilots killed, three of those planes and two of the pilots were lost on 'The Hardest Day', 18th August 1940.
From 1941-1943 the squadron fought in North Africa, having been equipped with the Mk. IIB (Trop). During the invasion of Italy they were reequipped with the Spitfire Mk. IXB until they returned to England in May 1944. They were part of the Allied air support for the Normandy Landings and from July 1944 - May 1945 they often flew escort for Allied bombers.
No. 188 Squadron was disbanded in March 1946.
At the risk of succumbing to a wind -up: it's a back story for an online air combat game. Look at the badge in the top right hand corner of the first post and briefly wonder how that could ever have got through the College of Heralds - recalling in the process that 617 was forced to change its motto from the original choice of 'Apres Nous Le Deluge' at the behest of the College, and the college objected to the current motto as well, as it was a derivation of the original and thus from a dubious Louis XV era comment by Madame de Pompadour.
It was only because George VI had said what a splendid choice 'Apres Moi Le Deluge' was that the squadron was able to note that King trumps Herald and they got their preferred motto...
The less said about the original 602 Squadron badge (A winged bowler hat and the motto 'Gentlemen's Bomber Squadron') the better....
Last edited by Archimedes; 25th Nov 2015 at 20:45.
Squadron Number Plates
I seem to recall, when working as a minion on the 6th floor of MOD, that a very senior officer said, in exasperation, "Why don't we just throw a dart into a dartboard and accept the result, it will save a lot of time". This was in response to a very similar situation.
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Come on Courtney! Bantering about which Squadron is best, is what service life is/was all about! What else did we all waffle on about in the crewrooms for years 
What bugs me more is the way the government presents all these decisions as great strategic moves, rather than admitting they made some bloody awful decisions last time round because they are driven by accountants and don't actually understand what they are dealing with.
What bugs me more is the way the government presents all these decisions as great strategic moves, rather than admitting they made some bloody awful decisions last time round because they are driven by accountants and don't actually understand what they are dealing with.
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Not sure about the link above re 188 Sqn. Wickapedia and the RAF web site, (both I know, not the most authoritative of sites); however, in this case they are backed up by Air of Authority; all saying that 188 was not reactivated in pre war expansion or during WW2, having been disbanded in 1918.
The only 188 Sqn I can think of was the fictional Lancaster unit in the 1952 film Appointment in London.
The only 188 Sqn I can think of was the fictional Lancaster unit in the 1952 film Appointment in London.
Not sure about the link above re 188 Sqn. Wickapedia and the RAF web site, (both I know, not the most authoritative of sites); however, in this case they are backed up by Air of Authority; all saying that 188 was not reactivated in pre war expansion or during WW2, having been disbanded in 1918.
The only 188 Sqn I can think of was the fictional Lancaster unit in the 1952 film Appointment in London.
The only 188 Sqn I can think of was the fictional Lancaster unit in the 1952 film Appointment in London.
If you read the second paragraph on the link it says:
Of the above 'history', only a few parts are true. 188 Squadron did exist from 1917-1919, it was given the Squadron Code XD in 1939 but was never reformed.
I know HMS Ocean is only just out of an expensive and long refit and was re-dedicated by HM this year, but I must have missed the SDSR fine-print in that she will be scrapped inside of the next 2 years.
Given fanfare when the refit was announced as an 'essential capability' I was slightly surprised that she has not secured funding until at least CVS appears.
Admittedly Ocean was never a particularly nice place to live and operate from… but there you go.
When she returns to the UK will she sail again, or just wound-down?
Given fanfare when the refit was announced as an 'essential capability' I was slightly surprised that she has not secured funding until at least CVS appears.
Admittedly Ocean was never a particularly nice place to live and operate from… but there you go.
When she returns to the UK will she sail again, or just wound-down?
AFAIK she will remain available and high readiness until QNLZ is operational in 2018. After that either decommission or lower readiness depending on how the manning plot looks till PoW commissions.
Her refit took out an unsupportable orphan combat system (ADAWS) and replaced it with a DNA variant (as per the rest of Surflot) - and kept trying to keep the material state and habitability in a reasonable place.
Her refit took out an unsupportable orphan combat system (ADAWS) and replaced it with a DNA variant (as per the rest of Surflot) - and kept trying to keep the material state and habitability in a reasonable place.
It did need a bit more than a lick of paint and when they gutted the old IT systems I am sure they took the opportunity to fix the heads. The FAA certainly needs the spots Ocean offers. Without it they have quite a few squadrons competing for a vanishingly small number of places to park.
Even when CVS arrives the FAA helicopter squadrons will be competing for space with a tailored air group that could include F-35, Chinook, Army Wildcat or Apache, or any combination thereof. With (effectively) 3 Lynx / Wildcat and 6 Merlin squadrons our meagre amount of FAA jam does not have much bread to land on.
Even when CVS arrives the FAA helicopter squadrons will be competing for space with a tailored air group that could include F-35, Chinook, Army Wildcat or Apache, or any combination thereof. With (effectively) 3 Lynx / Wildcat and 6 Merlin squadrons our meagre amount of FAA jam does not have much bread to land on.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Sounds like a good case for buying a Mistral. Probably get a good price too if we promised to deploy it to the Eastern Med or Gulf..... 
On the one hand CVF/QE (CVS was the Invincible class) is huge with a vast flightdeck, so if you're doing mixed ops that's certainly an advantage, and in space terms I doubt we'll be any worse off than now in most circs. But using CVF partly as an LPH has some obvious downsides, aside from mixed ops being inherently more difficult.
One is the occasions when you need to surge the FW element (assuming you have enough airframes). With one vessel in commission, that rather limits your options. Another is sending such a high value asset into harm's way more than you'd really want.
So yes there's a strong case for adding an Ocean replacement into the mix, but even in these heady 2% days the money and manpower stretches only so far (and in the case of manpower, not very), so we make do.
One is the occasions when you need to surge the FW element (assuming you have enough airframes). With one vessel in commission, that rather limits your options. Another is sending such a high value asset into harm's way more than you'd really want.
So yes there's a strong case for adding an Ocean replacement into the mix, but even in these heady 2% days the money and manpower stretches only so far (and in the case of manpower, not very), so we make do.
Yep, I absolutely get the manpower issue in the RN and that the cuts were horrendous. The make-do spirit is alive and well but unless we get some more 'Fleet' under the 'Air Arm' do we not run the risk of the FAA collapsing in on itself, with further cuts in line with the reduction of deck spots?
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and we're going to try and man both carriers............... right now we have to employ US Coastguard guys to keep part of the fleet running - once we have the carriers the manpower issue will be catastophic..............