RAF Instructors - steely eyed or gentle and supportive ?
What's so surprising about QFIs being different. I reckon I helped the good students to be better but wasn't the best for the weaker ones.
If you passed your IRT with me you would never have a problem with instrument flying.
Remember having a good average student who would lose interest after a few minutes during formation flying and drift out of position so we were about to die. No success with him (despite hitting bone dome several times) but a quick couple of trips with someone else ( a creamie) sorted him out.
As a student on JP1s and Vampires I had very good, pleasant instructors but the QFI I remember best was the feared MP Evans. We were all getting a bit sloppy towards the end of the Vampire course so check flights for all. "What height are you meant to be boy? 1100 sir. Well why aren't you" I was at least 20ft out. Same with the speed. If you can fly at 152 when you are meant to be at 150, why aren't you? That stuck with me for the rest of my career.
When I was a QFI there was a bit of a shortage of pilots so we were getting some pretty poor ones through the selection process. They needed to be weeded. As for the Middle Eastern ones that's an epic tale, 30 hours to solo on a JP. The Russians had never let them get beyond taxiing part 1. The very odd exception, one from Kuwait who came top of his mixed course. Leading a pair of I....is solo formation more than one QFI was heard to boast that they had never caught up.
Remember as an IRE before I did CFS having a new arrival, first tour, as were we all,for his IRT. He was good and then would switch off completely and give up during unusual attitudes. New squadron commander not happy at failure. This guy had already been brown-nosing with boss.
Neil Williams suggested he have a ride with him. Trip went well until start of a BABS approach when idiot pilot trims full nose down but has forgotten that's what you do after lowering full flap in a Canberra which he has omitted to do. Even Neil chickened out of this Stuka approach. Should have been chopped in training but survived a full career in flying. Luck, or were we wrong?
If you passed your IRT with me you would never have a problem with instrument flying.
Remember having a good average student who would lose interest after a few minutes during formation flying and drift out of position so we were about to die. No success with him (despite hitting bone dome several times) but a quick couple of trips with someone else ( a creamie) sorted him out.
As a student on JP1s and Vampires I had very good, pleasant instructors but the QFI I remember best was the feared MP Evans. We were all getting a bit sloppy towards the end of the Vampire course so check flights for all. "What height are you meant to be boy? 1100 sir. Well why aren't you" I was at least 20ft out. Same with the speed. If you can fly at 152 when you are meant to be at 150, why aren't you? That stuck with me for the rest of my career.
When I was a QFI there was a bit of a shortage of pilots so we were getting some pretty poor ones through the selection process. They needed to be weeded. As for the Middle Eastern ones that's an epic tale, 30 hours to solo on a JP. The Russians had never let them get beyond taxiing part 1. The very odd exception, one from Kuwait who came top of his mixed course. Leading a pair of I....is solo formation more than one QFI was heard to boast that they had never caught up.
Remember as an IRE before I did CFS having a new arrival, first tour, as were we all,for his IRT. He was good and then would switch off completely and give up during unusual attitudes. New squadron commander not happy at failure. This guy had already been brown-nosing with boss.
Neil Williams suggested he have a ride with him. Trip went well until start of a BABS approach when idiot pilot trims full nose down but has forgotten that's what you do after lowering full flap in a Canberra which he has omitted to do. Even Neil chickened out of this Stuka approach. Should have been chopped in training but survived a full career in flying. Luck, or were we wrong?
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prodding with a nav rule
The violence reported in #17 and #19 does not sound so bad really.
The Piston Provost came with a conventional builder's crowbar strapped to the central cabin pillar, by the instructor's left shoulder and handily in reach of his right hand.
We all knew it was there, but its only "victim" we knew of was the star of our Entry - in due course an Exceptional pilot. The instructor was later my squadron commander on 7FTS and an absolute gentleman.
Now, of course, I can guess that, while the story was real for us, it never happened.
Then again all of our instructors seemed to have come off Hunters at Jever and probably would not have known what a nav rule was.
The Piston Provost came with a conventional builder's crowbar strapped to the central cabin pillar, by the instructor's left shoulder and handily in reach of his right hand.
We all knew it was there, but its only "victim" we knew of was the star of our Entry - in due course an Exceptional pilot. The instructor was later my squadron commander on 7FTS and an absolute gentleman.
Now, of course, I can guess that, while the story was real for us, it never happened.
Then again all of our instructors seemed to have come off Hunters at Jever and probably would not have known what a nav rule was.
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"What height...boy", "...despite hitting bone dome several times..," yes, when struggling to acquire a new skill what I feel really helps is being insulted or hit over the head. Thank you, quiet please, your post answers the OP's question on instructional technique exactly.
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Plenty of very good accounts on this thread and it only goes to show that there are as big a range of flying instructors as there are people in any other walk of life.
Personally, I got on with all my instructors, regardless of their quirks. Some of them are even here and I thank them. I agree that some fellow studes felt a bit dubious about the more "boisterous" instructors, especially in the early days, but most made it through to a high standard. So make of that what you will.
Personally, I got on with all my instructors, regardless of their quirks. Some of them are even here and I thank them. I agree that some fellow studes felt a bit dubious about the more "boisterous" instructors, especially in the early days, but most made it through to a high standard. So make of that what you will.
Wholeheartedly agree ShotOne,
While I was struggling to get to grips with the Wessex on instruments without ASE (stab system), my instructor sat there chewing gum while repeating 'scan, scan, scan' with the occasional 'RELAX!' thrown in for good measure. Great instructional technique that obviously helped me to master the exercise in no time. Hopefully he later made a better AVM than QHI.
While I was struggling to get to grips with the Wessex on instruments without ASE (stab system), my instructor sat there chewing gum while repeating 'scan, scan, scan' with the occasional 'RELAX!' thrown in for good measure. Great instructional technique that obviously helped me to master the exercise in no time. Hopefully he later made a better AVM than QHI.
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In what other "walk of life", mach2, is humiliating or physically striking someone you're supposed to be teaching considered normal, even something to boast about?
And yes, kintyred, I enjoyed the "RELAX!!" treatment too; on a dual navex, yelled at full volume, face four inches from mine. What on earth was that meant to achieve?
And yes, kintyred, I enjoyed the "RELAX!!" treatment too; on a dual navex, yelled at full volume, face four inches from mine. What on earth was that meant to achieve?
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OK, Shot One, fair question. I can only answer based on my own first hand experience. Your tone comes across to me with a slight twist of bitterness so I can only assume your experiences were not like mine. I would add at this point that I am not a QFI, so I have no defence to make on this.
I can honestly say that in my many years of service I have never seen, or had reported me, anything that that would warrant being described as humiliation or physically striking a student.
I have been severely bollocked in a loud voice when my primary instructor at a secret Basic Flying Training base thought I was trying to kill him. But that wasn't humiliation even though he used harsh words.
I was once slapped for not warning an instructor before applying 8g to his body. But it wasn't any kind of physical abuse.
I have seen people, more recently, complain about being given a frank, honest, gloves off debrief. People don't like to be told bad things about their performance. I would agree that the totally straight approach to debriefing comes across as harsh to some people, especially some youngsters that have grown up in a fluffy environment where no one is allowed to experience failure. But sooner or later, the kids have to be told that "doing that will get you and others killed."
I can honestly say that in my many years of service I have never seen, or had reported me, anything that that would warrant being described as humiliation or physically striking a student.
I have been severely bollocked in a loud voice when my primary instructor at a secret Basic Flying Training base thought I was trying to kill him. But that wasn't humiliation even though he used harsh words.
I was once slapped for not warning an instructor before applying 8g to his body. But it wasn't any kind of physical abuse.
I have seen people, more recently, complain about being given a frank, honest, gloves off debrief. People don't like to be told bad things about their performance. I would agree that the totally straight approach to debriefing comes across as harsh to some people, especially some youngsters that have grown up in a fluffy environment where no one is allowed to experience failure. But sooner or later, the kids have to be told that "doing that will get you and others killed."
On civil big jets I've twice had a change of instructor and on both occasions they remarked that they couldn't see what the alleged problem had been. Curious.
I had a manufacturer's pilot start shouting at me; he shut up when I told him I didn't require his effing advice about how to fly an NDB approach. Bit arrogant, I admit, but he'd pissed me off a bit.
I did once punch my FO but he was the FTM on a sim 'Landings to FOs' session and that particular airline liked assertive captains. A great one-off since I knew I'd never again have the opportunity to punch a manager with impunity.
Needless to say, I've never punched a real FO
I had a manufacturer's pilot start shouting at me; he shut up when I told him I didn't require his effing advice about how to fly an NDB approach. Bit arrogant, I admit, but he'd pissed me off a bit.
I did once punch my FO but he was the FTM on a sim 'Landings to FOs' session and that particular airline liked assertive captains. A great one-off since I knew I'd never again have the opportunity to punch a manager with impunity.
Needless to say, I've never punched a real FO
I have related this story once or twice before...
Originally being a Nimrod 'dry man' my particular hate was solely reserved for my EW instructor who had an individual way of drumming home identification of the sounds of particular radars with the use of a wooden metre ruler which he carried around the classroom with him.
He left such a lasting (non-physical) impression on me that when I later learned that he had died, my first thought, to my eternal shame, was 'Good'.
When I later became an instructor and eventually a instructor-trainer, I used him often as an example of the sort of instructor that one should never be.
Also, when going through instructor training, my instructor related the story of a certain helicopter QCI who carried a metal ruler on the aircraft with him and would beat the back of the student's helmet with it whenever a mistake was made. That worked fine until one day the student turned around at the wrong time and received the ruler on his face.
Originally being a Nimrod 'dry man' my particular hate was solely reserved for my EW instructor who had an individual way of drumming home identification of the sounds of particular radars with the use of a wooden metre ruler which he carried around the classroom with him.
He left such a lasting (non-physical) impression on me that when I later learned that he had died, my first thought, to my eternal shame, was 'Good'.
When I later became an instructor and eventually a instructor-trainer, I used him often as an example of the sort of instructor that one should never be.
Also, when going through instructor training, my instructor related the story of a certain helicopter QCI who carried a metal ruler on the aircraft with him and would beat the back of the student's helmet with it whenever a mistake was made. That worked fine until one day the student turned around at the wrong time and received the ruler on his face.
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I guess you had to put up with this violence and bullying in the military,
In the civilian world, I would have considered it possible to kick someone in the face using a C152 wing strut as a fulcrum if necessary.
Hate bullies, always have done, and will fight them to this day.
In the civilian world, I would have considered it possible to kick someone in the face using a C152 wing strut as a fulcrum if necessary.
Hate bullies, always have done, and will fight them to this day.
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1987, JP5, 2000'.
QFI "OK Bloggs, just taken a bird, I'm incapacitated, the engine is dead, the aircraft will crash, what you going to do?"
Me "Eject Sir"
QFI "Aren't you going to try and save me?"
Me "Nah, you're not worth the effort."
I passed the trip and he bought me a beer later.
QFI "OK Bloggs, just taken a bird, I'm incapacitated, the engine is dead, the aircraft will crash, what you going to do?"
Me "Eject Sir"
QFI "Aren't you going to try and save me?"
Me "Nah, you're not worth the effort."
I passed the trip and he bought me a beer later.
One of the older QFIs was flying with his student at The Towers in 1974.....
"OK, Bloggs, where are we?"
"Errmm...."
"Well, get out your local area map then"
(Rustle rustle"
"Good grief, Bloggs, that looks like a bit of old newspaper!"
At which Bloggs turns to his QFI, offering the map:
"Chip, Sir?"
The old chap thought this a huge joke and they continued their GH sortie very happily.
But at one Happy Hour, one of the ATCOs came into the bar with a tape player, which he connected to the Steak Bar disco system. He then pressed 'Play' and we were treated to several minutes of a stuck transmit cockpit conversation between a QFI and his student. Constant aggression and swearing; eventually they realised that Cranwell Approach wasn't replying; Bloggs is told to RTB with a radio failure. "Cranwell Approach, this is XXXXX with a practice radio failure" was followed immediately by "It's not a f*****g practice failure, it's a real f****** radio failure, you c**t!" Then CLICK as it dawned on the QFI that they had probably been stuck on Tx for quite a while.....
The tape became famous, the student received a lot of sympathy and the QFI had a rather one-way interview with OC Stds......
"OK, Bloggs, where are we?"
"Errmm...."
"Well, get out your local area map then"
(Rustle rustle"
"Good grief, Bloggs, that looks like a bit of old newspaper!"
At which Bloggs turns to his QFI, offering the map:
"Chip, Sir?"
The old chap thought this a huge joke and they continued their GH sortie very happily.
But at one Happy Hour, one of the ATCOs came into the bar with a tape player, which he connected to the Steak Bar disco system. He then pressed 'Play' and we were treated to several minutes of a stuck transmit cockpit conversation between a QFI and his student. Constant aggression and swearing; eventually they realised that Cranwell Approach wasn't replying; Bloggs is told to RTB with a radio failure. "Cranwell Approach, this is XXXXX with a practice radio failure" was followed immediately by "It's not a f*****g practice failure, it's a real f****** radio failure, you c**t!" Then CLICK as it dawned on the QFI that they had probably been stuck on Tx for quite a while.....
The tape became famous, the student received a lot of sympathy and the QFI had a rather one-way interview with OC Stds......
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have grown up in a fluffy environment where no one is allowed to experience failure.
Examiner standards have us now informing students that they 'didn't meet the required standard.' I seem to recall some years ago that the education system started referring to 'deferred passes...'
Some students seem 'shocked' when I point out they actually have to work (and work hard) to get the licence/rating rather than just getting it out of a box of Rice Krispies.
Never shouted or struck a student in all my instructional days (tempted often) but will admit to the odd 'sigh of frustration' and even though it is bad technique the odd bit of sarcasm does creep in. When you have to remind people that they want to be responsible for the lives 189 strangers, huggy fluffy doesn't always work, and unfortunately, the economics of the business I'm in doesn't allow them too many attempts to get it right.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Originally Posted by Mach Two
I have seen people, more recently, complain about being given a frank, honest, gloves off debrief. People don't like to be told bad things about their performance. I would agree that the totally straight approach to debriefing comes across as harsh to some people, especially some youngsters that have grown up in a fluffy environment where no one is allowed to experience failure. But sooner or later, the kids have to be told that "doing that will get you and others killed."
Now, it would be better if you collected the latest docs, used a new chart, and brought some pencils rather than a blunt chinagraph. You settled in well with most of your kit but were a bit slow to remember you had forgotten your helmet '
. . . "
In contrast, on the next phase of training, if late for met brief the instructors took the sortie and left the studes, apologies and all, behind. School of hard knocks worked.
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I have never been any form of instructor, perhaps for the best, but I disagree with those on here who want everything to be fluffy in military training.
It is impossible to simulate the pressures of real military ops in training, but sometimes the extra pressure of aggressive instructors is very valuable.
If shouting makes you lose the ability to fly, then military is not the place for you.
Military flying training is not about getting everyone through. If you are not chopping a percentage, you are not maintaining standards.
Yes it can go too far. I've had a discussion airborne with Jack F.... during my RN grading where I explained to him that the next time he punched me I was going to hospitalise him. (We got on well after that!)
The idea that the training environment should be lovely is barking.
Do we train the SAS by chatting nicely to them?
If you want elite, it has to be pressured.
I suspect that many on here whingeing only just scraped through and are still mildly traumatised my the experienced.
It is impossible to simulate the pressures of real military ops in training, but sometimes the extra pressure of aggressive instructors is very valuable.
If shouting makes you lose the ability to fly, then military is not the place for you.
Military flying training is not about getting everyone through. If you are not chopping a percentage, you are not maintaining standards.
Yes it can go too far. I've had a discussion airborne with Jack F.... during my RN grading where I explained to him that the next time he punched me I was going to hospitalise him. (We got on well after that!)
The idea that the training environment should be lovely is barking.
Do we train the SAS by chatting nicely to them?
If you want elite, it has to be pressured.
I suspect that many on here whingeing only just scraped through and are still mildly traumatised my the experienced.
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Instructor training - doing the usual Primary Effects of Controls demo/teach/student practice (repeatedly until the patter was good............)
'Bloggs' in the front obviously taking notes on his kneepad (but I can't see what he's writing)
After landing he says 'see those chinagraph marks on my kneepad ? (lots) That is every time you said 'OK' after delivering a line of patter...........'
Was frightened to speak after that. I'm sure it made my patter worse for the other exercises..............but I sort of got the message.
Arc
'Bloggs' in the front obviously taking notes on his kneepad (but I can't see what he's writing)
After landing he says 'see those chinagraph marks on my kneepad ? (lots) That is every time you said 'OK' after delivering a line of patter...........'
Was frightened to speak after that. I'm sure it made my patter worse for the other exercises..............but I sort of got the message.
Arc
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"..next time he punched me.." Even your account, tourist shows a text-book example of bullying. If that's good technique, why should your threat of retaliation have altered it?
In my own "RELAX" shouty moment, it was delivered with such venom that I was convinced it was going to be followed up with a blow. The rest of the sortie was spent working out whether I'd have to loosen my ejection seat straps to retaliate and if I'd be chopped for doing so -and was a 100% waste of avtur.
In my own "RELAX" shouty moment, it was delivered with such venom that I was convinced it was going to be followed up with a blow. The rest of the sortie was spent working out whether I'd have to loosen my ejection seat straps to retaliate and if I'd be chopped for doing so -and was a 100% waste of avtur.
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Seriously though, if you are never chopping, you are saying that everybody who gets through the interview is suitable.
That's simply never going to be the case.
Judging how good a pilot is going to be by their learning curve/rate is cr@p, but it is better than any other metric that has been found.
Getting somebody through by awesome/extra instruction rather than student capability just leads to downstream problems either on OCUs or frontline.
We have all seen the results and long term fallout of the various times that recruitment numbers have been tight and standards have relaxed a bit.