Bu**ar off...and leave your watch!
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CM,
When I knew you as both Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr, you didn't need to use your rank with me. Sadly, I don't know you as a civilian.
There is a huge difference between rank and leadership.
When I knew you as both Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr, you didn't need to use your rank with me. Sadly, I don't know you as a civilian.
There is a huge difference between rank and leadership.
Last edited by O-P; 12th Oct 2015 at 01:36.
I didn't press the point that he perhaps shouldn't be using the title 'Captain.'
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,558
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
I also discovered that security clearance now lapses after a few months out of the firm! No longer is it valid and therefore you would need to be security cleared again in order to get access to base without an escort (which undoubtedly costs money).
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also discovered that security clearance now lapses after a few months out of the firm
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: South of France
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many years ago, my old flying instructor, who had a wonderful career with the RAF, mused to me over a beer, 'I loved the RAF but I quickly realised that once my services were over, the RAF didn't love me...'
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bury St. Edmunds
Age: 64
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I left the RAF in 1989 and have seldom looked back apart from various reunions over the years. Initially these were on base and we were welcomed by the powers-that-be, i.e. PMC/Mess Manager and could hold a private function in the mess and get accommodation. All that changed a long time ago and we now meet-up invariably in an hotel.
Times have changed and I accept that but it still saddens me that such one time perks, as decent food, decent staff, a friendly bar, and a "batty" service have all but gone.
The point thought that Four Types initially made though was in part more general and that was the poor way that ex-service personnel (of all colours) get treated as veterans. Much more I think ought to be done to recognise the service that vets have given to the country.
I remember lots of visits by ex-RAF personnel in the guise of RAFA visits, or former RAF servicemen/women of the staff of ATC squadrons etc. who inevitably got a tour of the ATC tower, Fire Section and a spiel of what the station did, whether it be front-line stuff or flying training. I met some very interesting people in the process. I very much hope that such visits still go on.......
I fully understand the need for additional security to restrict access to military establishments but I think it fairly safe to assume that former service personnel are a pretty low threat......and can be considered to play still for the same side whether in uniform or not!
MB
Times have changed and I accept that but it still saddens me that such one time perks, as decent food, decent staff, a friendly bar, and a "batty" service have all but gone.
The point thought that Four Types initially made though was in part more general and that was the poor way that ex-service personnel (of all colours) get treated as veterans. Much more I think ought to be done to recognise the service that vets have given to the country.
I remember lots of visits by ex-RAF personnel in the guise of RAFA visits, or former RAF servicemen/women of the staff of ATC squadrons etc. who inevitably got a tour of the ATC tower, Fire Section and a spiel of what the station did, whether it be front-line stuff or flying training. I met some very interesting people in the process. I very much hope that such visits still go on.......
I fully understand the need for additional security to restrict access to military establishments but I think it fairly safe to assume that former service personnel are a pretty low threat......and can be considered to play still for the same side whether in uniform or not!
MB
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 45
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All a bit paranoid and OTT. I remember very well having to jump the fence at Valley in 1993 on the Ros side and go to to the Ops centre next to fully armed Jags. I didn't get stopped. And it was for a good reason I had to go there.
'I loved the RAF but I quickly realised that once my services were over, the RAF didn't love me...'
Having said that, I must agree with those above who've intimated that we're entitled to be in certain places when we're in, but after that we shouldn't expect automatic special treatment.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Oldpax, live a few miles away but felt no impelling need to seek an invite or attend.
Times change and thus we are forced to as well. The moment that single members could move out of the Mess into there own property spelt out the writing on the wall. Does anyone at all live in them now on a permanent basis? Those magnificent pseudo Georgian piles now run more by plc's rather than pmc's are fast losing their raison d'etre.
That tendency will have been accelerated by the difficulty of Squadron Associations arranging reunions on the station that their serving squadron inhabits. Mine has all but abandoned the effort and has gravitated to inviting the Squadron to a less than local hotel, rather than the latter inviting us to its Messes (either Sgts & WOs, or Officers). I would have thought that enhanced the security threat to serving and ex-serving individuals, but then again I don't see the big picture...
That tendency will have been accelerated by the difficulty of Squadron Associations arranging reunions on the station that their serving squadron inhabits. Mine has all but abandoned the effort and has gravitated to inviting the Squadron to a less than local hotel, rather than the latter inviting us to its Messes (either Sgts & WOs, or Officers). I would have thought that enhanced the security threat to serving and ex-serving individuals, but then again I don't see the big picture...
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...or to paraphrase and drag gutterwards, one quotable quote from this hemisphere was "I love the f*****g RAAF and the RAAF loves f*****g me!"
Is it so wrong that I have still have my RAF ID card several years after leaving?
Y_G
ps, never been back to UK to try and use it to gain access either, I just never got round to handing it in as I had somewhere better to go.
Originally Posted by O-P
CM,
When I knew you as both Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr, you didn't need to use your rank with me. Sadly, I don't know you as a civilian.
There is a huge difference between rank and leadership.
When I knew you as both Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr, you didn't need to use your rank with me. Sadly, I don't know you as a civilian.
There is a huge difference between rank and leadership.
Brings to mind our Sqn Ldr Ops at Chiv. He'd been around a long time and just lived to fly. Lovely bloke. He'd been bollocked many years earlier for failing to call someone important "Sir". His solution was to call everyone "Sir" regardless of who they were.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: England
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right to reply!
Got a few bites on that one! Just to clarify a few points.
I am not attached to the RAF by an umbilical!...I have well and truly departed the crumbling ruin I proudly joined 34+ years ago. I have moved on to a new and more interesting career.
I didn't actually use the phrase 'do you know who I am?' but as I get older and more senile I sometimes feel the need to ask my long suffering wife this question first thing in the morning!!
As to 'do I understand security?' I was a USyO (to which I thank my Flt Cdr for - NOT!) so I am afraid I had security ripped out of my ar*e on many occasions on behalf of those amongst us who didn't share my respect for it.
No, I have not written to the Station Commander to demand a 14 page explanation for such behaviour. Having just retired I know how busy they are and also my 'gripe' is aimed at the Military in general, not just one person.
I do not expect to be allowed to wander on to a camp at will, hence my gripe at the Airshow Free Pass remark.
I referred to the US system of giving the veterans the option of utilising the facilities on camp (gym, mess, bars, shops(!)). Thus, whilst you are still in and security cleared you could apply for a pass (make it one/two station specific if you will) and then still be able to socialise with the chaps you served with as they move on over the next 5 years. Not too much to ask for is it?
I was more upset that the chap who took the time to invite me had to leave his beer and come and escort me back to his beer! Never been keen on inconveniencing friends.
But, all in all I knew this would be a good topic for a discussion. It reminds of those days when we could sit around the crew room and banter each other remorselessly. Can't do that anymore, I am not allowed in!
I am not attached to the RAF by an umbilical!...I have well and truly departed the crumbling ruin I proudly joined 34+ years ago. I have moved on to a new and more interesting career.
I didn't actually use the phrase 'do you know who I am?' but as I get older and more senile I sometimes feel the need to ask my long suffering wife this question first thing in the morning!!
As to 'do I understand security?' I was a USyO (to which I thank my Flt Cdr for - NOT!) so I am afraid I had security ripped out of my ar*e on many occasions on behalf of those amongst us who didn't share my respect for it.
No, I have not written to the Station Commander to demand a 14 page explanation for such behaviour. Having just retired I know how busy they are and also my 'gripe' is aimed at the Military in general, not just one person.
I do not expect to be allowed to wander on to a camp at will, hence my gripe at the Airshow Free Pass remark.
I referred to the US system of giving the veterans the option of utilising the facilities on camp (gym, mess, bars, shops(!)). Thus, whilst you are still in and security cleared you could apply for a pass (make it one/two station specific if you will) and then still be able to socialise with the chaps you served with as they move on over the next 5 years. Not too much to ask for is it?
I was more upset that the chap who took the time to invite me had to leave his beer and come and escort me back to his beer! Never been keen on inconveniencing friends.
But, all in all I knew this would be a good topic for a discussion. It reminds of those days when we could sit around the crew room and banter each other remorselessly. Can't do that anymore, I am not allowed in!
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it really so unreasonable to restrict access to military installations to EX-servicemen? Timothy McVeigh and Lee Harvey Oswald were both ex-servicemen.
If you feel hard done-by, try using your pass to go airside at any civilian airport as an ex-employee and see how far you get.
If you feel hard done-by, try using your pass to go airside at any civilian airport as an ex-employee and see how far you get.
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Essex
Age: 65
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When already in a hole, stop digging.......
Four Types:
Given that at least three of the paragraphs in your "Right to reply" appear to address my post #13, I'll bite again.
I didn't actually use the phrase 'do you know who I am?'
I nveer said that you did but the whole tone of your original post screams that this is/was your mindset - particularly given your use of the word "jobsworth".
As to 'do I understand security?' I was a USyO
As a mere civvie I am unfamiliar with this nomenclature. I tried Goggling this acronym but gave up after scrolling through ten pages of otherwise unrelated references. No doubt your role was vital to the defence of the nation and afforded you special insight into security matters but, if so, I remain to be persuaded by what you have said so far.
No, I have not written to the Station Commander to demand a 14 page explanation for such behaviour.
I did not say you needed to write to demand a 14 page explanation. Any staish worth his or her salt would surely be able respond in a concise fashion to any polite enquiry from former serving personnel as to why security on-site is configured the way it is given specific geographical location, frequency of visitors, proportion of civilian against serving personnel, sensitivity of ops on base etc.
Your "gripe" may well be aimed at the "Military in general" but I suspect you are more likely to get a meaningful response from the local commander than if you try approaching the CAS (or even the CDS).
I hope your host who had to leave his beer for a few minutes understands better than you appear to do. If not then he and you should arrange to banter off-base.
Four Types:
Given that at least three of the paragraphs in your "Right to reply" appear to address my post #13, I'll bite again.
I didn't actually use the phrase 'do you know who I am?'
I nveer said that you did but the whole tone of your original post screams that this is/was your mindset - particularly given your use of the word "jobsworth".
As to 'do I understand security?' I was a USyO
As a mere civvie I am unfamiliar with this nomenclature. I tried Goggling this acronym but gave up after scrolling through ten pages of otherwise unrelated references. No doubt your role was vital to the defence of the nation and afforded you special insight into security matters but, if so, I remain to be persuaded by what you have said so far.
No, I have not written to the Station Commander to demand a 14 page explanation for such behaviour.
I did not say you needed to write to demand a 14 page explanation. Any staish worth his or her salt would surely be able respond in a concise fashion to any polite enquiry from former serving personnel as to why security on-site is configured the way it is given specific geographical location, frequency of visitors, proportion of civilian against serving personnel, sensitivity of ops on base etc.
Your "gripe" may well be aimed at the "Military in general" but I suspect you are more likely to get a meaningful response from the local commander than if you try approaching the CAS (or even the CDS).
I hope your host who had to leave his beer for a few minutes understands better than you appear to do. If not then he and you should arrange to banter off-base.
ShotOne,
That would only be a fair comparison if airport employees' social clubs and guest accommodation were airside, which they aren't, and if a significant number of airport workers lived airside, which they don't.
----
A great advantage of the US system of maintaining the link between the retired community and the base is that the potential market for on-base shops, social facilities, etc is greatly increased - all of which benefits the serving inhabitants through e.g. having a large and cheap supermarket on site. Then there are the intangible benefits to the moral component of fighting power accrued from unforced and natural social contact between the retired generation and the serving 'youth'.
The US can manage this without a problem because they have a much more layered approach to security than does the typical British military base, and hence can be less worried about the number of 'social' passes issued to families and veterans. British bases are slowly changing as infrastructure gets rebuilt, with the introduction of proximity cards, touchpads or other forms of control of access for the more sensitive areas. I wonder if this might, in time, result in a slightly more 'can-do' attitude to social visitors to domestic areas?
Finally - security clearances 'lapsing'. AIUI retirees are required to hand back their passes almost immediately, thereby losing their rights of access, but their security-cleared status (i.e. SC, DV, etc) continues until its next renewal date (note, being 'security-cleared' does not actually get you anywhere unless you have relevant employment). Cleared status has traditionally been seen as an attractive CV item when applying to certain sectors of industry as it saves them paying for it themselves. Finding the vaguest of reasons to get clearances renewed towards the end of a final tour of duty has been a long-standing wheeze!
That would only be a fair comparison if airport employees' social clubs and guest accommodation were airside, which they aren't, and if a significant number of airport workers lived airside, which they don't.
----
A great advantage of the US system of maintaining the link between the retired community and the base is that the potential market for on-base shops, social facilities, etc is greatly increased - all of which benefits the serving inhabitants through e.g. having a large and cheap supermarket on site. Then there are the intangible benefits to the moral component of fighting power accrued from unforced and natural social contact between the retired generation and the serving 'youth'.
The US can manage this without a problem because they have a much more layered approach to security than does the typical British military base, and hence can be less worried about the number of 'social' passes issued to families and veterans. British bases are slowly changing as infrastructure gets rebuilt, with the introduction of proximity cards, touchpads or other forms of control of access for the more sensitive areas. I wonder if this might, in time, result in a slightly more 'can-do' attitude to social visitors to domestic areas?
Finally - security clearances 'lapsing'. AIUI retirees are required to hand back their passes almost immediately, thereby losing their rights of access, but their security-cleared status (i.e. SC, DV, etc) continues until its next renewal date (note, being 'security-cleared' does not actually get you anywhere unless you have relevant employment). Cleared status has traditionally been seen as an attractive CV item when applying to certain sectors of industry as it saves them paying for it themselves. Finding the vaguest of reasons to get clearances renewed towards the end of a final tour of duty has been a long-standing wheeze!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 4 Civvy Street. Nowhere-near-a-base. The Shires.
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Mind you - banter is only allowed now if there is a 0.00% chance of it offending anyone at all in the entire EU, or the possibility of infringing on their personal rights in some way. Hardly worth getting a temporary pass for a barrel these days - the Fun Police are here to stay.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of being denied access [or access being more trouble than its worth]: the first day of retirement is the first day outside the magic circle, and yes, it does hurt.
Even for this civvy more or less permanently attached, with a slack handful of passes and almost every clearance known to mortal man, giving it all up caused many a pang. I miss the RAF more than I miss the Met. Office, for sure.
Hence my pathetic maunderings and mumblings on this forum!
Even for this civvy more or less permanently attached, with a slack handful of passes and almost every clearance known to mortal man, giving it all up caused many a pang. I miss the RAF more than I miss the Met. Office, for sure.
Hence my pathetic maunderings and mumblings on this forum!
When already in a hole, stop digging....... Exuw
Oo err, Missus! Standing by for the former USyO to lambaste Exuw for failing to comply with the statement at the top of Military Aviation page and apparent lack of experience with Service banter or, indeed, awareness of the definition of an acronym.....
Jack
PS And to think I was under the impression that "exuw" meant a former Underwater Weapons rating
Oo err, Missus! Standing by for the former USyO to lambaste Exuw for failing to comply with the statement at the top of Military Aviation page and apparent lack of experience with Service banter or, indeed, awareness of the definition of an acronym.....
Jack
PS And to think I was under the impression that "exuw" meant a former Underwater Weapons rating