Hospital bombed in the Afghan city of Kunduz.
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The fundamental problem is that the US military just don't know when to stop. There's no restraint and there's no mindset for peace.
Thomas Barnett gave a rather good talk on the matter:
Thomas Barnett gave a rather good talk on the matter:
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Pontius, Doctors without borders stated "Our staff reported no armed combatants or fighting in the compound prior to the airstrike". Without any information to the contrary, I do believe this is credible, as they regularly and loudly protest when armed combatants enter the hospital.
( In a statement posted online in July, they said "heavily armed men from Afghan Special Forces entered the [Médecins Sans Frontières] hospital compound, cordoned off the facility and began shooting in the air."
"The armed men physically assaulted three MSF staff members and entered the hospital with weapons," the statement continued. "They then proceeded to arrest three patients." )
Afghan forces don't like that medical treatment is given to insurgent combatants. This may be a wild conspiracy theory, but maybe some Afghans wanted to use the US to destroy the hospital? Again, pure speculation. Anyway the US has accepted full responsibility, and stated the decision was taken within their chain of command. President Obama called Doctors without borders to apologize ( https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...onal-president ) - it's exceptionally rare that a US president offers apologies, so I think it's clear this was indeed a major blunder, and everyone is aware of that.
What I don't like is the leaks that RoE weren't followed, it looks like a hunt for a scapegoat. Given that the building looks recognizable, and that publicly available maps identify it as a hospital, and that Doctors without borders provide coordinates, and that AH-130 have capable sensors to visually acquire a target with great precision, and in 99.999% of all cases do exactly that (doctors without borders stated that surrounding buildings were more or less unharmed), this seems odd. I'd suspect there was a communication breakdown somewhere. In the absence of more information, my best guess is that someone - probably by oversight - didn't give the crew and JTAC enough information.
( In a statement posted online in July, they said "heavily armed men from Afghan Special Forces entered the [Médecins Sans Frontières] hospital compound, cordoned off the facility and began shooting in the air."
"The armed men physically assaulted three MSF staff members and entered the hospital with weapons," the statement continued. "They then proceeded to arrest three patients." )
Afghan forces don't like that medical treatment is given to insurgent combatants. This may be a wild conspiracy theory, but maybe some Afghans wanted to use the US to destroy the hospital? Again, pure speculation. Anyway the US has accepted full responsibility, and stated the decision was taken within their chain of command. President Obama called Doctors without borders to apologize ( https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...onal-president ) - it's exceptionally rare that a US president offers apologies, so I think it's clear this was indeed a major blunder, and everyone is aware of that.
What I don't like is the leaks that RoE weren't followed, it looks like a hunt for a scapegoat. Given that the building looks recognizable, and that publicly available maps identify it as a hospital, and that Doctors without borders provide coordinates, and that AH-130 have capable sensors to visually acquire a target with great precision, and in 99.999% of all cases do exactly that (doctors without borders stated that surrounding buildings were more or less unharmed), this seems odd. I'd suspect there was a communication breakdown somewhere. In the absence of more information, my best guess is that someone - probably by oversight - didn't give the crew and JTAC enough information.
Last edited by deptrai; 8th Oct 2015 at 08:47.
Originally Posted by Weat Coast
Cazalet/JH has moved beyond asking questions, indeed he has arrived at a conclusion minus the data to do so. I think M2 has nailed it in the description of this man as a troll and as such should be ignored, which is exactly what I plan on.
The abundant repetition of anti-war, anti-military, anti-West in his posts highlights exactly where he's coming from and his lack of interest in discovering the facts. His continual refusal to acknowledge any members' responses (apart from subtle changes in his attack direction) indicates that his posts are not intended as discussion, but rather as provocation.
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a quick google search for "Cazalet33" reveals the following: "I am a former high fashion model and am now an entrepreneur in the field of health, nutrition and beauty helping people to create their own financial destiny."
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A terrible tragedy but that is all.
Perhaps Cazalet33 would be better served venting their ire at the reason for the military action in the first place...
Just saying.......
Just saying.......
If the US military did not know that the hospital was located at that very prominent position, right at the head of the Nasvan-e-Markazi Road, then they should not have been attacking the city at all.
But you asked a previous question related to what a board of inquiry (JAG investigation) will also ask, which is
"did you know that the building you identified as the target was a hospital?"
and it's follow on question
"What building was it that you called on the aircraft to attack?"
(@Deptrai, your post makes sense to me)
I suspect that someone in an HQ a few links up the chain could have found that hospital and had it marked on a map as a hospital. Likewise marked are things like schools.
What is unclear to me is how well this information was passed or disseminated to whomever needed to use it in the field. The investigation ought to be able to figure that out.
The possible problem of a local calling in for fire support and getting it ... could happen.
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The building is quite unmistakable from the air, as well as from the ground. It really can't be confused with any other.
One wonders what on Earth the attackers thought the building was when they attacked it.
One wonders what on Earth the attackers thought the building was when they attacked it.
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Cazalet33
The building is quite unmistakable from the air, as well as from the ground. It really can't be confused with any other.
One wonders what on Earth the attackers thought the building was when they attacked it.
The building is quite unmistakable from the air, as well as from the ground. It really can't be confused with any other.
One wonders what on Earth the attackers thought the building was when they attacked it.
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maybe some Afghans wanted to use the US to destroy the hospital?
The problem is that it beggars belief that the Afghans could have expected the US forces to do anything so monstrous as to "raze" the province's only hospital.
The splashback against US imperial aggression was so predictable and the embarrassment would so predictably go to the very highest level that surely the Afghans could not have expected the attackers to fall for such a trick.
As ever, I think the cockup theory is vastly more plausible than any "conspiracy" theory. It was just the Americans doing what the Americans do. Not much different from bombing Sudan's only medicine factory or a baby milk factory in Baghdad or shooting down an Airbus or any of a hundred other atrocities.
An interesting postulate, deptrai.
The problem is that it beggars belief that the Afghans could have expected the US forces to do anything so monstrous as to "raze" the province's only hospital.
The splashback against US imperial aggression was so predictable and the embarrassment would so predictably go to the very highest level that surely the Afghans could not have expected the attackers to fall for such a trick.
As ever, I think the cockup theory is vastly more plausible than any "conspiracy" theory. It was just the Americans doing what the Americans do. Not much different from bombing Sudan's only medicine factory or a baby milk factory in Baghdad or shooting down an Airbus or any of a hundred other atrocities.
The problem is that it beggars belief that the Afghans could have expected the US forces to do anything so monstrous as to "raze" the province's only hospital.
The splashback against US imperial aggression was so predictable and the embarrassment would so predictably go to the very highest level that surely the Afghans could not have expected the attackers to fall for such a trick.
As ever, I think the cockup theory is vastly more plausible than any "conspiracy" theory. It was just the Americans doing what the Americans do. Not much different from bombing Sudan's only medicine factory or a baby milk factory in Baghdad or shooting down an Airbus or any of a hundred other atrocities.
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An AC-130 allegedly blew up a wedding party in Afghanistan some time ago. 140 casualties. Wedding parties aren't identified on any maps. As awful as it may be, it wouldn't make me think twice. Mistakes happen.
(disclosure: unlike CM I was never courteous enough to disclose my credentials or real identity, although those who know me and those who want to spend some time could piece it together from my post history. I'll disclose I was trained as a simple sailor/cadet on a traditional tall ship, in a NATO country, rarely involved with air force issues, later SIGINT, then I joined the merchant navy, and later dabbled in civilian aviation. And even if I wasn't a military aviator, I can spot a "high fashion model", maybe it's my SIGINT training...)
(disclosure: unlike CM I was never courteous enough to disclose my credentials or real identity, although those who know me and those who want to spend some time could piece it together from my post history. I'll disclose I was trained as a simple sailor/cadet on a traditional tall ship, in a NATO country, rarely involved with air force issues, later SIGINT, then I joined the merchant navy, and later dabbled in civilian aviation. And even if I wasn't a military aviator, I can spot a "high fashion model", maybe it's my SIGINT training...)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Deptrai, #63, I agree. I was pointing out that this hospital in a war zone did not display any recognition signs if that earlier image was correct.
If no such signs were displayed then their case is weakened.
Caz,
That it beggars belief that Afghans would have the Province's only hospital razed to the ground would only astound someone with no knowledge of people in that region.
I refer to my earlier reference to a car bomb placed deliberately outside a hospital in Iraq.
There are also instances in the region where they have bombed their own people so as to blame the opposition.
The Middle East rule book is not written in English.
If no such signs were displayed then their case is weakened.
Caz,
That it beggars belief that Afghans would have the Province's only hospital razed to the ground would only astound someone with no knowledge of people in that region.
I refer to my earlier reference to a car bomb placed deliberately outside a hospital in Iraq.
There are also instances in the region where they have bombed their own people so as to blame the opposition.
The Middle East rule book is not written in English.
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As was pointed out by Thomas Barnett, if the US had put funds into building and staffing American hospitals, then the motivation for this particular atrocity would have been removed.
There is no American hospital in Kunduz. More's the pity.
Perhaps an appropriate reparation might be for the US to build a large provincial hospital in each of Afghanistan's 34 provinces and make a commitment to staff it with US medical personnel for at least 30 years. That would keep the hospitals safe from air attack.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have attacked the hospital if it had been an American one, staffed by American doctors nurses and other medical staff.
There is no American hospital in Kunduz. More's the pity.
Perhaps an appropriate reparation might be for the US to build a large provincial hospital in each of Afghanistan's 34 provinces and make a commitment to staff it with US medical personnel for at least 30 years. That would keep the hospitals safe from air attack.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have attacked the hospital if it had been an American one, staffed by American doctors nurses and other medical staff.
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can I ask you a simple, direct question? are you Amanda Cazalet, aka cazalet33? https://twitter.com/cazalet33
Does it? They have form for using larger powers as proxy means of doing this. There were several cases to be found in Russian memoirs/accounts where the Soviets were convinced that there was a clear necessity to bomb/rocket/strafe a target by their Afghan advisor/LO, only to discover they'd been used to settle a tribal or family blood feud (sometimes dating back years).
It's very good of you to chin off the Privy Council meeting for our benefit, Mr Corbyn, but couldn't you have met with Her Majesty and asked one of your assistants to post that little bit of tired old invective?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Caz, now your proposal for the US to build hospitals in ever province and staff them for 30 years beggars belief.
They well be safe from US air attack but they would be a rocket, bomb, and bullet magnet for everyone else.
Anyways, carry on lightening an otherwise dull afternoon.
PS,
Remember we are talking about a tragic event and not your stance that the nasty imperialistic war mongers are guilty of war crimes. Rather than a blame game, how can risk of future tragedies be minimised.
They well be safe from US air attack but they would be a rocket, bomb, and bullet magnet for everyone else.
Anyways, carry on lightening an otherwise dull afternoon.
PS,
Remember we are talking about a tragic event and not your stance that the nasty imperialistic war mongers are guilty of war crimes. Rather than a blame game, how can risk of future tragedies be minimised.
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The problem is that it beggars belief that the Afghans could have expected the US forces to do anything so monstrous as to "raze" the province's only hospital.
Last edited by KenV; 8th Oct 2015 at 14:31.
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I was pointing out that this hospital in a war zone did not display any recognition signs if that earlier image was correct.
If no such signs were displayed then their case is weakened.
If no such signs were displayed then their case is weakened.
Unfortunately there are a few problems with the idea of painted an appropriate symbol on the roof.
For one thing, paint doesn't show up particularly well on IR. For another, rebelling tribesmen in Afghanistan tend not to abide by the Geneva Conventions and it wouldn't be long before they spoofed the system by painting red crosses or crescents on all sorts of building all over the place if they felt it might give them some immunity from air attack.
Do any buildings anywhere in Afghanistan have such symbology to prevent or dissuade air attack?
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Rather than a blame game, how can risk of future tragedies be minimised.
The feeling of immunity from prosecution for war crimes in the International Criminal Court is quite certainly a factor in the mindset of the type of people who perpetrate such atrocities. If they thought they would face a a life imprisonment term for their actions they might apply a bit of self-restraint when attacking the environs of a hospital. Then that might, just might, dissuade them from committing the crime.