Russia sends four SU27s to Syria
"I'd have thought a bunch of Su-25s would be more use in that fight."
I think they'll use these for air support and fly heavy Tupolev bombers from russian bases over Iran&Iraq to do the bombing(it's the route they already use for Antonov transport aircrafts). They might even drop some on ISIS targets in Iraq as well, to appease iraqi government.
I think they'll use these for air support and fly heavy Tupolev bombers from russian bases over Iran&Iraq to do the bombing(it's the route they already use for Antonov transport aircrafts). They might even drop some on ISIS targets in Iraq as well, to appease iraqi government.
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Does anyone have a real problem with Putin reinforcing Assad? Their ROE will be less restrictive than the UN and their response no doubt more robust with less regard to collateral damage.
Governments have a moral and humanitarian responsibility to minimise damage to property and death of civilians, regardless of whether they're a member of the UN. The refugee crisis is significant already, it will get a whole lot worse when Russia's contribution to the Operation gets in to the full swing. IMHO.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
JSF, in today's world in the west, you are correct. 60 odd years ago we employed rather more robust ROE in Malaya, Kenya, Aden etc. Russia may be operating as 70-80 years ago against a foe using rules from 700-800 ago.
Turning the other cheek may be Christian, but robust Christianity may be what is needed.
I see the media is now saying Putin-Assad is a least bad option.
Turning the other cheek may be Christian, but robust Christianity may be what is needed.
I see the media is now saying Putin-Assad is a least bad option.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Independent: Russia has deployed more than 28 military planes to Syria in recent days, claims US
Russia has deployed at least 28 combat aircraft to Syria and has started flying unmanned surveillance drones as part of a steady military build-up, US officials have claimed.
Amid mounting concern about the situation inside Syria and the civil war that has been millions of refugees flee the country, officials in Washington told reporters that Russia was increasingly the number of planes and helicopters. These included “Fencer” advanced-attack aircraft and “Frogfoot” jets, used for close air support.
Reuters said unidentified officials had said Russia was also flying drones on surveillance missions – Russia’s first military air operations inside the country. It is believed the drone operations have been flown out of an air base near Latakia, where it has moved other heavy military equipment............
Russia has deployed at least 28 combat aircraft to Syria and has started flying unmanned surveillance drones as part of a steady military build-up, US officials have claimed.
Amid mounting concern about the situation inside Syria and the civil war that has been millions of refugees flee the country, officials in Washington told reporters that Russia was increasingly the number of planes and helicopters. These included “Fencer” advanced-attack aircraft and “Frogfoot” jets, used for close air support.
Reuters said unidentified officials had said Russia was also flying drones on surveillance missions – Russia’s first military air operations inside the country. It is believed the drone operations have been flown out of an air base near Latakia, where it has moved other heavy military equipment............
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I suggest that the answer is yes, inasmuch as that they are being actively used against a defenceless civilian population.
Our compliance to such things has been patchy, depending on the circumstances and the risk reward ratio, hence condemning Assad is rather hypocritical of the west.
Governments have a moral and humanitarian responsibility to minimise damage to property and death of civilians, regardless of whether they're a member of the UN.
Whats worse, x amount of people killed brutally in a short amount of time, or 10x over a longer amount of time.
If Russia pulls the gloves off, it may be able to help. The strategy we are doing now is deeply flawed and hamstrung by politics.
Think about whats happening and the time constraint we are under!
The situation has been going on for over an year now, whats the birth rate, whats the indoctrination level in those areas. The fact is, children are being indoctrinated every day, females are probably being forced to spit out children like vending machines.
Even if we kill off the leadership, whats left behind will be a deeply indoctrinated population. Effectively we will have changed the mean level of extremism in the population,
Another words the potential for this to grow exponentially is a real possibility. At the end of the day, we need to be killing ISIS supporters etc in their thousands every day or weekly.
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After the lies of Iraq, the waste of life in Afghanistan and the subsequent disorder across most of the middle east, children getting washed up on beaches, i fail to see how the US&A and ourselves have the brass neck to muster an opinion on what the Russians get up to.
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@PP: You are 100% correct
As a matter of fact where did Russia ever screw up?
There were a bunch of dictators (north africa and middle east), treating their subjects horribly and subsequently overthrown. However, look what a mess it is now, much worse than it ever was before.
As a matter of fact where did Russia ever screw up?
There were a bunch of dictators (north africa and middle east), treating their subjects horribly and subsequently overthrown. However, look what a mess it is now, much worse than it ever was before.
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Lovely target.
This has changed the whole balance of power in the Middle East.
Israel and Turkey can no longer strut their stuff with impunity.
And will Cameron still contemplate RAF drone strikes in Syria, never mind sending GR4s in? And how much will Obama pull his horns in?
CIA, MI6 and Mossad must be shipping MANPADs and ATGMs to the rebels right now. This will be Putin's Vietnam/Afghanistan, he is up against extremely experienced and hardened fighters. This is not Georgia or Crimea.
Already the Russian embassy in Damascus has been shelled. Which is just the beginning.
This has changed the whole balance of power in the Middle East.
Israel and Turkey can no longer strut their stuff with impunity.
And will Cameron still contemplate RAF drone strikes in Syria, never mind sending GR4s in? And how much will Obama pull his horns in?
CIA, MI6 and Mossad must be shipping MANPADs and ATGMs to the rebels right now. This will be Putin's Vietnam/Afghanistan, he is up against extremely experienced and hardened fighters. This is not Georgia or Crimea.
Already the Russian embassy in Damascus has been shelled. Which is just the beginning.
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Democracy is over rated. It doesn't suit every nation. Stability and security are more important to unsophisticated societies. OK, Assad is not a nice guy, but what is the realistic alternative for Syria? Let the Russians have a free hand there, don't interfere and above all don't get sucked into any conflict there.
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JSF
Re: post #27
Are you really sure our current ROE are as a result of lessons learned?
In WW2 if a Brit patrol saw some German troops they could open fire. This may kill the enemy troops for no loss of Brit life.
Our modern ROE could see that same patrol blown to pieces by an IED as they would have needed for the opposition troops to bring effective fire onto the Brits before fire could be returned.
Is it also progress that modern fighter aircraft with super duper BVR missiles, but no gun have to get WVR to engage opposition aircraft.
IMHO modern Western ROE are there to satisfy the media and politicians far more than to protect our forces.
Re: post #27
Are you really sure our current ROE are as a result of lessons learned?
In WW2 if a Brit patrol saw some German troops they could open fire. This may kill the enemy troops for no loss of Brit life.
Our modern ROE could see that same patrol blown to pieces by an IED as they would have needed for the opposition troops to bring effective fire onto the Brits before fire could be returned.
Is it also progress that modern fighter aircraft with super duper BVR missiles, but no gun have to get WVR to engage opposition aircraft.
IMHO modern Western ROE are there to satisfy the media and politicians far more than to protect our forces.
Assad is fighting ISIS, Nusra Front, Free Syrian Army and small elements of the American backed and trained rebels. Putin is sending forces to support Assad which presumably will attack any forces which oppose him so that could lead to a situation where they bomb a group America backs. If that happens what will America do? Israel has also used the chaos to attack Syria so will they shoot down Russian aircraft if they defend targets against one of their attacks?
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3,700 Russian military in Syria (that we know of).
Now actively engaged (allegedly):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlCh...ature=youtu.be
Bodybags?
Now actively engaged (allegedly):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlCh...ature=youtu.be
Bodybags?
3,700 Russian military in Syria (that we know of).
Now actively engaged (allegedly):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlCh...ature=youtu.be
Now actively engaged (allegedly):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlCh...ature=youtu.be
Does any of this remind folks of the Spanish Civil War? It sort of does and it sort of doesn't for me.
Man, I'd love to know what the phone conversations between Ankara and Moscow sound like lately.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ecclectic. I would speculate that there is adequate low level communication if not coordination. While much has been made recently of Russian flights in to NATO air space, they have been doing it for decades, and we to them, and they almost always played by the same set of rules.