Maritime Patrol Capability: The SDSR’s Wolf Whistle
A report on the BBC this morning:
An RAF plane is "conducting activity" off the Scottish coast, the Ministry of Defence says, amid reports of a Russian submarine being spotted in the area.
A Royal Navy Frigate and submarine are also thought to be involved in the search, along with Canadian and French maritime patrol aircraft.
The Telegraph reports the French plane has searched for the submarine for at least 10 days.
The RAF currently has no maritime patrol aircraft of its own.
But according to the BBC's defence correspondent Jonathan Beale, this lack of patrol aircraft is expected to be addressed in Monday's Strategic Defence and Security Review.
The submarine was detected north of Scotland. The Ministry of Defence did not confirm it was looking for a foreign submarine.
"We can confirm that allied maritime patrol aircraft based at RAF Lossiemouth for a limited period are conducting activity with the Royal Navy," a statement said.
"We do not discuss the detail of maritime operations."
There have been previous concerns that Russia could be developing plans to have submarines sever key internet communications during future wars, following a spike in its naval activity near the locations of undersea cables.
The timing of the story makes the cynic in me think there will be an order for MPA in the SDSR this week.
Fallon anounces 7.50 on BBC Breakfast, the goverment will order Boeing P 8 along will other Army/ Air force news.
An RAF plane is "conducting activity" off the Scottish coast, the Ministry of Defence says, amid reports of a Russian submarine being spotted in the area.
A Royal Navy Frigate and submarine are also thought to be involved in the search, along with Canadian and French maritime patrol aircraft.
The Telegraph reports the French plane has searched for the submarine for at least 10 days.
The RAF currently has no maritime patrol aircraft of its own.
But according to the BBC's defence correspondent Jonathan Beale, this lack of patrol aircraft is expected to be addressed in Monday's Strategic Defence and Security Review.
The submarine was detected north of Scotland. The Ministry of Defence did not confirm it was looking for a foreign submarine.
"We can confirm that allied maritime patrol aircraft based at RAF Lossiemouth for a limited period are conducting activity with the Royal Navy," a statement said.
"We do not discuss the detail of maritime operations."
There have been previous concerns that Russia could be developing plans to have submarines sever key internet communications during future wars, following a spike in its naval activity near the locations of undersea cables.
The timing of the story makes the cynic in me think there will be an order for MPA in the SDSR this week.
Fallon anounces 7.50 on BBC Breakfast, the goverment will order Boeing P 8 along will other Army/ Air force news.
Last edited by Ddraig Goch; 23rd Nov 2015 at 06:57. Reason: News of P 8 order from Fallon.
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Yes, I also heard Fallon's interview. I'm absolutely amazed, & delighted, that Cameron has swallowed his pride & decided to purchase the P8. I'm just really sad that I'm too old to fly in them. 
I'm absolutely amazed, & delighted, that Cameron has swallowed his pride & decided to purchase the P8
thats chimes with everything i've seen or heard - no one cancelled Nimrod because they didn't think it was important, they cancelled it because the f*&king thing wouldn't fly and they was no way within the currently accepted laws of physics to make the f*&king thing fly.
given the political and financial option, Cameron would have ordered P-8 the day after he signed off on scrapping Nimrod.
given the political and financial option, Cameron would have ordered P-8 the day after he signed off on scrapping Nimrod.
St Mawgan or Lossiemouth? or....
. Lossie is full and Newquay Airport doesn't belong to the MOD. Could always kick the army out of Kinloss.
I've said on here before, I heard Liam Fox say as much on Radio Scotland the day after SDSR 2010 , but he never repeated that elsewhere - I suspect Mr Coulson shut him up.
Well done CAS and 1SL for forcing this through.
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Suggestions that there was any problem with MRA4 were only brought out after those who could refute it had moved on and were not in a position to do so. The only reason given in SDSR 2010 for cancelling MRA4 was to save £2bn over 10 years, money now spent on an aircraft with only half the range and capability.
EG
EG
Gentleman Aviator
admits his mistake.........should resign!
And "news" reports no longer seem to say what Ministers said, but what they will say.
Curious.
In 1947, Hugh Dalton - Chancellor of the Exchequer - resigned after having (probably inadvertently) revealed one sentence of his Budget Speech minutes before he delivered it in the House......
...... o tempora o mores.....
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Suggestions that there was any problem with MRA4 were only brought out after those who could refute it had moved on and were not in a position to do so. The only reason given in SDSR 2010 for cancelling MRA4 was to save £2bn over 10 years, money now spent on an aircraft with only half the range and capability.
EG
EG
So Japan, a maritime, island nation (but one which does not have a submarine-based deterrent) thinks it needs upwards of 70 P-1s.
While we're getting NINE P-8s.
I remember when we had 46 Nimrod MR.Mk 1s, equipping five frontline squadrons, and later 35 MR.Mk 2s equipping three squadrons. In the latter case there never seemed to be quite enough of the damned things, and it seemed to be a regular refrain that we really could have used the airframes that had been diverted to the ill-starred AEW.Mk 3 programme.
One can't help but wonder whether the usual desire of senior officers to have the newest, shiniest toy, with all the bells and whistles has again resulted in us not having quite enough assets? Whether the holy grail of 'harmonisation' with the US has not led to us overlooking more sensible, arguably modest solutions that would have allowed us to maintain a more realistic force structure?
I never got the impression that there had been any serious consideration of the alternatives to P-8. Airbus Military said that you could afford to buy and run double the number of C295 MPAs half the money that a given number of P-8s would cost (or four times the number for the same cost, in other words?). It was estimated that even the four-jet P-1 cost roughly half as much as the P-8.
Obviously the P-8 can do many things that a C295 (or Saab 2000, or whatever) cannot, but it cannot be in four different places simultaneously.
Nor am I entirely confident that the P-8 can do everything that it says on the tin, nor even that it will ever be able to do so. I'm uncertain as to whether the aircraft will ever be able to prosecute contacts at low level, or whether doing everything from medium level will be possible or cost effective.
I wonder whether the RAF will specify a MAD, like the Indian P-8s (which also seem to have expanded low level and overland options), or whether we will get an aircraft identical to the US Navy aircraft?
It's obviously welcome news that we're going to get new MPAs at all, but my personal joy is tempered by the tiny (inadequate?) number of aircraft, and at another apparent example of buying the latest (unproven and immature) US kit without even considering cheaper and more practical solutions.
While we're getting NINE P-8s.
I remember when we had 46 Nimrod MR.Mk 1s, equipping five frontline squadrons, and later 35 MR.Mk 2s equipping three squadrons. In the latter case there never seemed to be quite enough of the damned things, and it seemed to be a regular refrain that we really could have used the airframes that had been diverted to the ill-starred AEW.Mk 3 programme.
One can't help but wonder whether the usual desire of senior officers to have the newest, shiniest toy, with all the bells and whistles has again resulted in us not having quite enough assets? Whether the holy grail of 'harmonisation' with the US has not led to us overlooking more sensible, arguably modest solutions that would have allowed us to maintain a more realistic force structure?
I never got the impression that there had been any serious consideration of the alternatives to P-8. Airbus Military said that you could afford to buy and run double the number of C295 MPAs half the money that a given number of P-8s would cost (or four times the number for the same cost, in other words?). It was estimated that even the four-jet P-1 cost roughly half as much as the P-8.
Obviously the P-8 can do many things that a C295 (or Saab 2000, or whatever) cannot, but it cannot be in four different places simultaneously.
Nor am I entirely confident that the P-8 can do everything that it says on the tin, nor even that it will ever be able to do so. I'm uncertain as to whether the aircraft will ever be able to prosecute contacts at low level, or whether doing everything from medium level will be possible or cost effective.
I wonder whether the RAF will specify a MAD, like the Indian P-8s (which also seem to have expanded low level and overland options), or whether we will get an aircraft identical to the US Navy aircraft?
It's obviously welcome news that we're going to get new MPAs at all, but my personal joy is tempered by the tiny (inadequate?) number of aircraft, and at another apparent example of buying the latest (unproven and immature) US kit without even considering cheaper and more practical solutions.
wot he (EG) said! If it couldn't 'fly' all those hours the guys spent over the Irish Sea conducting ASW during Neptune Warrior must have been a mirage... Yes, it wasn't perfect but read the books about most of our favourite military aircraft - neither were they when entering service! Anyhoo - moving on....
I'm glad to eat humble pie and admit I'd never thought this day would come. Shame the RAF chucked me a wad to bugger off when they binned MRA4, however, I'm still well 'geographically placed' (to use the lingo) given the basing decision
Congrats also to the ex-MR Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs pushing the case during the 'wilderness years'.
I'm glad to eat humble pie and admit I'd never thought this day would come. Shame the RAF chucked me a wad to bugger off when they binned MRA4, however, I'm still well 'geographically placed' (to use the lingo) given the basing decision
Congrats also to the ex-MR Wg Cdrs and Sqn Ldrs pushing the case during the 'wilderness years'.