Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow
Whether or not it's germane to this particular incident, this is what I wrote some 5 years ago when discussing why 'aileron rolls', sometimes termed 'victory rolls' are so dangerous:
Andy was very lucky not to have speared into the crowd having fallen out of that poorly flown manoeuvre at Southport, in my opinion.
Anyway, back to the dangers of the 'victory roll'....
Usually observed to start from a high speed approach, balls-out on the deck, followed by a climbing aileron roll. As the aircraft runs in at high speed, it will very likely be trimmed for such speed.
Pulling up, it will begin to decelerate. Full aileron and rudder to balance will cause a lot of drag, so it'll decelerate even more. It has now slowed down and the untrimmed state will tend to pitch the aircraft nose down as the roll progresses; the pilot may well pull against this, reducing the apex height accordingly.
As the roll reaches the final wings level state, the aircraft will probably be descending and significantly out of trim. In addition, the attitude needed for level flight at the new speed will require a higher pitch angle than did the initial beat up. So the pilot may well need full aft control column to stop the descent and to oppose the out of trim state......and recovery to level flight may well take longer than anticipated, or may not be achieved until terra firma prevents any further descent.
And how many of us have seen Bloggs cock-up a barrel roll and bury the nose on exit....?
Usually observed to start from a high speed approach, balls-out on the deck, followed by a climbing aileron roll. As the aircraft runs in at high speed, it will very likely be trimmed for such speed.
Pulling up, it will begin to decelerate. Full aileron and rudder to balance will cause a lot of drag, so it'll decelerate even more. It has now slowed down and the untrimmed state will tend to pitch the aircraft nose down as the roll progresses; the pilot may well pull against this, reducing the apex height accordingly.
As the roll reaches the final wings level state, the aircraft will probably be descending and significantly out of trim. In addition, the attitude needed for level flight at the new speed will require a higher pitch angle than did the initial beat up. So the pilot may well need full aft control column to stop the descent and to oppose the out of trim state......and recovery to level flight may well take longer than anticipated, or may not be achieved until terra firma prevents any further descent.
And how many of us have seen Bloggs cock-up a barrel roll and bury the nose on exit....?
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Well, I'm not an aerobatic pilot, or ex-RAF but I don't think you have to be either to see what's going on here.
That roll in the JP was poorly flown, but luckily he got away with it. Luckily for the spectators in particular.....
The manoeuvre in the Hunter looks about the same deal- Again, not well flown, but unfortunately a poorer outcome.
Maybe the AAIB will turn up some mitigating factor (s), but this pilot doubts it.
Just my opinion, of course.
That roll in the JP was poorly flown, but luckily he got away with it. Luckily for the spectators in particular.....
The manoeuvre in the Hunter looks about the same deal- Again, not well flown, but unfortunately a poorer outcome.
Maybe the AAIB will turn up some mitigating factor (s), but this pilot doubts it.
Just my opinion, of course.
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Courtney Mil
Are you trying to use the height of the speaker as a means of judging the height of the aircraft? Without knowing the height of the camera, the height of the speaker and the relative distances between aircraft, speaker and camera, that it meaningless and, frankly, somewhat typical of trying to use YuoTube video to make out that something is way more dramatic than it really is.
Are you trying to use the height of the speaker as a means of judging the height of the aircraft? Without knowing the height of the camera, the height of the speaker and the relative distances between aircraft, speaker and camera, that it meaningless and, frankly, somewhat typical of trying to use YuoTube video to make out that something is way more dramatic than it really is.
And as you have mentioned witnesses; the roll was flown North to South parallel to the crowd line, it was royally f***ed up while passing the inverted position. The recovery took place to the East as a result of continuing the roll which was now directed towards and crowd line, it may also have passed over the crowd during an almost 180 degree climbing turn opposite to the original axis of the roll entry.
As this airshow takes place over the beach many viewers sit in the sand dunes to the South away from the main crowds giving a better view. With this particular incident the person who watched it unfold was sat along the North South axis of the manoeuvre giving a very clear view of the height assisted by objects, people, etc in the back ground, you can be assured it was close to impact with the beach.
Had it hit the beach the impact point would have been very close if not in to the spectators.
Beagle is VERY wide of the mark, in my years of instructing (refresher students and standardising instructors) on RAF jets, never heard it said that a victory or aileron roll is a particularly dangerous manoeuvre. They have a technique which makes them a simple and safe aerobatic. Raise the nose to a suitable angle, apply (full) aileron, a touch of rudder perhaps, wait for wings level and fly away! Without any elevator input the nose WILL be lower than on entry, and that determines the pitch attitude to be used at entry.
As for needing full aft stick to stop the descent, that would produce a possibly severe G stall, to say that suggests a serious misunderstanding of control and stability. Pulling to just nibble at the buffet was the technique to get the best pitch rate from the JP.
And air displays are not flown by "Bloggs" .
From what I saw in that video , a perfectly safe roll was seriously mishandled, period.
The exact height of the roll is irrelevant, it was done very low, and too much height was lost in the roll, it was not difficult to roll the JP without any height loss and there was enough control authority to push to minus 2.5 g when inverted, but with a time limit imposed by fuel recuperator capacity.
As for needing full aft stick to stop the descent, that would produce a possibly severe G stall, to say that suggests a serious misunderstanding of control and stability. Pulling to just nibble at the buffet was the technique to get the best pitch rate from the JP.
And air displays are not flown by "Bloggs" .
From what I saw in that video , a perfectly safe roll was seriously mishandled, period.
The exact height of the roll is irrelevant, it was done very low, and too much height was lost in the roll, it was not difficult to roll the JP without any height loss and there was enough control authority to push to minus 2.5 g when inverted, but with a time limit imposed by fuel recuperator capacity.
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 3rd Feb 2016 at 21:32.
Retired BA/BY wrote:
Well quite. Absolutely fine if the pitch attitude at entry is correct and the manoeuvre is flown at a safe height.
Whereas many 'victory rolls' simply weren't - with the obvious result.
I know that 'Bloggs' doesn't normally fly low level aeros, but the point was that pilots making a mess of barrel rolls was a common event - usually because of insufficient pitch at entry.
They have a technique which makes them a simple and safe aerobatic. Raise the nose to a suitable angle, apply (full) aileron, a touch of rudder perhaps, wait for wings level and fly away! Without any elevator input the nose WILL be lower than on entry, and that determines the pitch attitude to be used at entry.
Whereas many 'victory rolls' simply weren't - with the obvious result.
I know that 'Bloggs' doesn't normally fly low level aeros, but the point was that pilots making a mess of barrel rolls was a common event - usually because of insufficient pitch at entry.
ATC, I was at Southport in a position where the JP was coming directly at me, if he hadn't managed to recover the aircraft I may not be sat here typing this. This could have been another Ramstein.
I was standing on the sea wall and in front of me there was about 100 to 150 yards in depth of spectators, cars and vendors on the beach. If he hadn't recovered he would very possibly have hit them.
I was standing on the sea wall and in front of me there was about 100 to 150 yards in depth of spectators, cars and vendors on the beach. If he hadn't recovered he would very possibly have hit them.
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In the example here of the speaker on a pole, a speaker mounted on a ten foot pole, ten feet from a six foot cameraman would appear to line up with an object at over 100 feet 100 yards away, roughly. Numbers done in my head using old money. As you don't know the height of the camera, the height of the speaker or the horizontal distance between any of the three objects, you can't do any sums to calculate the height of the aircraft. Get it?
That you had to explain that speaks volumes about what basis for understanding you are dealing with.
That's extremely kind of of you Deefer. Thank you.
My explanation was directed at those that had already demonstrated that they do not understand and some others that are not regulars, but that pitch up here full of bile and devoid of aviation knowledge when something bad happens.
My explanation was directed at those that had already demonstrated that they do not understand and some others that are not regulars, but that pitch up here full of bile and devoid of aviation knowledge when something bad happens.
blimey, isn't that a slow roll? 
Talking about people not getting the nose high enough at the commencement of a barrel roll; WIWOV, it was noted, by an eagle eyed person, that the upper surfaces of the wings were a little wavy. Turned out that some imaginative chaps had tried to barrel roll it; perfectly doable, of course, if you do it properly.
Talking about people not getting the nose high enough at the commencement of a barrel roll; WIWOV, it was noted, by an eagle eyed person, that the upper surfaces of the wings were a little wavy. Turned out that some imaginative chaps had tried to barrel roll it; perfectly doable, of course, if you do it properly.
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2 things concern me.
- Why anyone in the Sussex Police thought it appropriate to disclose that they are investigating an earlier incident knowing, unless he/she was a naive half-wit, that there was a very high risk the information would be leaked to the press and, if it was, that the press would certainly publicise the earlier incident.
. - Why anyone here thinks it appropriate or fair to criticise the pilot on an open public forum, in relation to either or both incidents, when he is still at risk of being prosecuted.
There is an obvious risk that potential jurors will be influenced, consciously or subconsciously, by what they read here or see quoted in the press. Quotes from PPRuNe regularly appear in the press when there is an aviation accident or incident. Journalists assume, understandably given the site name, that all contributors to discussions on PPRuNe are professional pilots whereas many are not and never have been pilots of any sort except in their dreams.
Chatting in the privacy of a crew-room is very different from publishing potentially damaging opinions on the internet.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 4th Feb 2016 at 04:37. Reason: Typos
FL, exactly the point I and several others have been trying to make since this thread began. Drawing conclusions that attempt to apportion blame without being in possession of all the facts and with (evidently) little knowledge of the subject is plain wrong.
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I agree in part with FL. Sure, it's not fair to apportion blame until the result of an investigation or trail (if appropriate) comes in.
However it is human nature to speculate and draw conclusions, even early ones. It's also human nature to gossip and it's been happening since the dawn of time. Small town gossip has been taking place ahead of small town court cases for years. Fair or not, that's the way it is.
I stand to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say (or write on pprune) ahead of his trial that "I think it was the butler who dunnit with the candlestick," and could do so without fear of being prosecuted myself.
However it is human nature to speculate and draw conclusions, even early ones. It's also human nature to gossip and it's been happening since the dawn of time. Small town gossip has been taking place ahead of small town court cases for years. Fair or not, that's the way it is.
I stand to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say (or write on pprune) ahead of his trial that "I think it was the butler who dunnit with the candlestick," and could do so without fear of being prosecuted myself.
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There are plenty of things in life you can do without fear of prosecution, but it does not necessarily make them right. Read all the way to the end of Flying Lawyer's post and you might see another good reason why expressing your views here comes with a certain responsibility. But I doubt that will influence you terribly much.
Perhaps it's just a slow day on the Bis Jets and Agricultural Flying forum, or whatever it's called.
Perhaps it's just a slow day on the Bis Jets and Agricultural Flying forum, or whatever it's called.
I woz a GDT Rock and did a stint with 16 Sqn (The Saints) prior to the Gulf War and flew 1hr 45mins in a Fin Jet therefore I know everyfing about this flying malarkey. AH should have had more AR5 training and not been allowed to skimp his pistol TOETs. More gas = better pilot. Trust me 
This opinion is as relevant as some others on the main subject and offered with the same amount of technical expertise.
Per Ardua
Oh yeah please will ex-techies wave their wallets at me, especially armourers
This opinion is as relevant as some others on the main subject and offered with the same amount of technical expertise.
Per Ardua
Oh yeah please will ex-techies wave their wallets at me, especially armourers
Last edited by sittingstress; 4th Feb 2016 at 08:55. Reason: Post was written on a wonky ruler and remembering something.
Well Deefer, as far as I am aware, you may say what you wish but, others may take legal action against you and, you might be found guilty if they can prove their case. Furthermore, I believe that aspects of internet forums are more akin to the written word and, their widespread coverage can add weight to any action taken against a poster. 
OAP
OAP
Last edited by Onceapilot; 4th Feb 2016 at 09:25.
