Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow
And here lies the problem because actually that depends upon the issues, which will clearly drive the solution. Ironically for the future the biggest tragedy would be if the suggested solutions are mere repeats of those given previously.
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It would be the same. Although I would expect the risks associated with displaying vintage jets to be greater. I very much doubt that pilot selection, training, supervision, management etc will be on a par with the full time display teams of the forces. However, I think we have seen with recent reports following military aircraft losses that standards there are not always what they should be.
As others have said on here, this will affect all displays, including mil organised with mil aircraft. I would suggest that some of the comparisons made on here with civil traffic crossing highways to land at civil airports are fatuous.
S-D
It would be the same. Although I would expect the risks associated with displaying vintage jets to be greater. I very much doubt that pilot selection, training, supervision, management etc will be on a par with the full time display teams of the forces. However, I think we have seen with recent reports following military aircraft losses that standards there are not always what they should be.
As others have said on here, this will affect all displays, including mil organised with mil aircraft. I would suggest that some of the comparisons made on here with civil traffic crossing highways to land at civil airports are fatuous.
S-D
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Interesting little dit in the Grauniard;
For drivers, the A27 is far more dangerous than any air show | Science | The Guardian
For drivers, the A27 is far more dangerous than any air show | Science | The Guardian
It is an interesting article, Fluff, and the stats are quite sobering. I doubt the stated position will carry much weight in preserving the status quo for air shows, though. Citing something as a greater risk than an air show doesn't make the air show any less risky.
I does, however, put the whole thing in perspective. I wonder how many folks are aware of the accumulated risk they unwittingly or deliberately expose themselves to each day.
I does, however, put the whole thing in perspective. I wonder how many folks are aware of the accumulated risk they unwittingly or deliberately expose themselves to each day.
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Therein lies the issue. People don't care about the risk they put themselves in on a day to day basis, until it's too late....
Last edited by Fluffy Bunny; 28th Aug 2015 at 12:26. Reason: Spooling mistook
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Good article? No, not really, another journalistically lazy article, the likes of which attract so much criticism on here.
The author is critical of people not understanding the concept of risk which he clearly has no idea about himself. I refer people back to Satellite Driver's descriptions earlier in this thread. The MoD uses a similar scheme referring to 1st, 2nd and 3rd parties. There are many things that a driver can do to help reduce risk, choice of vehicle, route, time of day, driving style etc and there are some that are beyond their control, ie another vehicle entering their lane. But drivers wittingly make certain decisions, ie to drive, thus they are 1st parties. As passers by to an airshow, they have no interest, possibly no knowledge even of what is going on overhead and therefore no conscious acceptance of the risks.
I have been in a serious road accident in which others died. I survived because of a conscious decision to drive a very safe (crashworthy) car. (Not my fault by the way).
The author is critical of people not understanding the concept of risk which he clearly has no idea about himself. I refer people back to Satellite Driver's descriptions earlier in this thread. The MoD uses a similar scheme referring to 1st, 2nd and 3rd parties. There are many things that a driver can do to help reduce risk, choice of vehicle, route, time of day, driving style etc and there are some that are beyond their control, ie another vehicle entering their lane. But drivers wittingly make certain decisions, ie to drive, thus they are 1st parties. As passers by to an airshow, they have no interest, possibly no knowledge even of what is going on overhead and therefore no conscious acceptance of the risks.
I have been in a serious road accident in which others died. I survived because of a conscious decision to drive a very safe (crashworthy) car. (Not my fault by the way).
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I believe 10 Red Arrow pilots have been killed in the teams 50 year history, with about the same number of non fatal crashes, yet they were allowed to continue.
Now they are being neutered by the CAA following an unrelated accident, to a plane that had been flying 10 years before they were even formed.
Isn't the Dartmouth REGATTA over water anyway?
If they have gone from vintage jets to all jets in a few days, how long until it's all aircraft? The ONLY way to guarantee no one will ever be killed at an airshow, is to not have airshows.
It all smacks of a bureaucratic decision to be seen to do something. with obvious parallels to local councils slapping low speed limits onto sensible drivers following one drunk driver crashing.
Now they are being neutered by the CAA following an unrelated accident, to a plane that had been flying 10 years before they were even formed.
Isn't the Dartmouth REGATTA over water anyway?
If they have gone from vintage jets to all jets in a few days, how long until it's all aircraft? The ONLY way to guarantee no one will ever be killed at an airshow, is to not have airshows.
It all smacks of a bureaucratic decision to be seen to do something. with obvious parallels to local councils slapping low speed limits onto sensible drivers following one drunk driver crashing.
It all smacks of a bureaucratic decision to be seen to do something. with obvious parallels to local councils slapping low speed limits onto sensible drivers following one drunk driver crashing.
Now, back to topic....
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I wonder how many folks are aware of the accumulated risk they unwittingly or deliberately expose themselves to each day.
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IP You just need to look at your picture to find the answer to why the Reds aren't doing a full show at Dartmouth. It's a confined area (river valley with fairly big hills) populated on both sides. The over water element is negated, because the water's full of boats.
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Originally Posted by strake
There is no known cure for the condition known as life.
Last edited by Mach Two; 28th Aug 2015 at 16:17. Reason: typo, as usual.
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There is no known cure for the condition known as life.
Like many people, I have kept my powder dry for a while, but feel (rightly or wrongly), time is right to say something. I am not aircrew or even military, but a reasonably sensible human with a healthy interest with military aviation being the son of a FJ man back in the day. As it happens the Hunter was his favourite of all.
The event in Shoreham was tragic all round and the reason will likely become clear one day. Speculation and conjecture on a public forum helps nobody as once it is out there......it is out...
Sensible observations excepted.
Let us not forget that the last thing AH would have thought about that morning was where we are now.
Let the inquiry / investigation take it's natural course and stop bickering. If you won't stand in a room and say your bit - don't type it.
Edit :
Not a specific reply to you CM - just happened it was one of your posts I was reading when I thought of replying!.
TN.
The event in Shoreham was tragic all round and the reason will likely become clear one day. Speculation and conjecture on a public forum helps nobody as once it is out there......it is out...
Sensible observations excepted.
Let us not forget that the last thing AH would have thought about that morning was where we are now.
Let the inquiry / investigation take it's natural course and stop bickering. If you won't stand in a room and say your bit - don't type it.
Edit :
Not a specific reply to you CM - just happened it was one of your posts I was reading when I thought of replying!.
TN.
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It has been suggested in some corners that the pilot may have blacked out during the high energy manoeuvre. Whilst this is pure speculation it does raise the question should display pilots have an upper age limit? Is it right a 51 yr old was performing a high g manoeuvre? Do display pilots undergo strict annual medicals, ECG, blood tests etc? Flying military spec, even fifty year old jets is demanding and perhaps not for the more mature pilot? You don't see many fifty year old pilots in active FJ service very often, you dont see F1 drivers of that age.
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It has been suggested in some corners that the pilot may have blacked out during the high energy manoeuvre. Whilst this is pure speculation it does raise the question should display pilots have an upper age limit? Is it right a 51 yr old was performing a high g manoeuvre?
2. What makes one think the maneuver involved high g at all?
Tarantonight, I get your point. I admit I was confused until I got to the end of your post as, if you read back a bit, you'll find I've been banging that same drum here, probably too much.
Jayand, again something I touched on here a few pages ago. I refer to the USAF medical folks that once tortured me in their centrifuge during my time flying the F-15. To cut a long story short, their extensive research has not revealed any significant difference in resting or straining g-tolerance between twenty-somethings and fifty-somethings. Interestingly, there are some differences between gymn weight-pumpers, regular runners and folk that simply do regular exercise - and not necessarily those you might expect. But that is a different issue. Age is not a significant factor in g-tolerance.
As for medical exams, the requirements are clear and medicals are required for all pilots, civil and military. Whilst there is no difference between a pilot wanting to fly in straight lines and one that wants to do aeros, the standards are strict.
Yes, medicals include ECGs, blood tests, hearing tests, eye tests, urine tests and some other stuff.
Yes you do see a lot of pilots flying high performance aircraft well into their forties and fifties - as long as they are physically fit to do so. Some of us even managed to walk, unaided, to the aircraft.
I would be interested to hear back from you on this because I suspect you have some doubts and, perhaps, misconceptions in this area that I would be happy to address further if it would help.
Jayand, again something I touched on here a few pages ago. I refer to the USAF medical folks that once tortured me in their centrifuge during my time flying the F-15. To cut a long story short, their extensive research has not revealed any significant difference in resting or straining g-tolerance between twenty-somethings and fifty-somethings. Interestingly, there are some differences between gymn weight-pumpers, regular runners and folk that simply do regular exercise - and not necessarily those you might expect. But that is a different issue. Age is not a significant factor in g-tolerance.
As for medical exams, the requirements are clear and medicals are required for all pilots, civil and military. Whilst there is no difference between a pilot wanting to fly in straight lines and one that wants to do aeros, the standards are strict.
Yes, medicals include ECGs, blood tests, hearing tests, eye tests, urine tests and some other stuff.
Yes you do see a lot of pilots flying high performance aircraft well into their forties and fifties - as long as they are physically fit to do so. Some of us even managed to walk, unaided, to the aircraft.
I would be interested to hear back from you on this because I suspect you have some doubts and, perhaps, misconceptions in this area that I would be happy to address further if it would help.
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Jayand
It has been suggested in some corners that the pilot may have blacked out during the high energy manoeuvre.
It has been suggested in some corners that the pilot may have blacked out during the high energy manoeuvre.
it does raise the question should display pilots have an upper age limit?
Is it right a 51 yr old was performing a high g manoeuvre?
Do display pilots undergo strict annual medicals, ECG, blood tests etc?
Flying military spec, even fifty year old jets is demanding and perhaps not for the more mature pilot?
By the way "g" loading in a jet is the same as "g" loading in any other aircraft.
As for limitations on mature pilots, well really
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 28th Aug 2015 at 23:05. Reason: irrelevent text
