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Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

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Hawker Hunter Crash at Shoreham Airshow

Old 24th Aug 2015, 22:07
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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Any idea who Darren Sharp is in this clip from the BBC:

Shoreham pilot 'had to make a tough decision' - BBC News

Biggest load of tripe I have ever heard in my opinion. It seems Mr Sharp thinks that the aircraft was put down on the A27 on purpose as he had lost power instead of going for the airfield. Seeing as the runway was clear at the time of the Hunter display, then there would be little point in not using it and going for a busy major A road!

Where do the BBC find these so-called 'experts'?!!! I hope they didn't pay him!

LJ
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 22:07
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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Finningley Boy - for what it's worth it annoys me too, and I dont think that by post #300 on this thread when everybody has said RIP to those who died, wished good luck to the Hunter pilot and discussed possible causes of the accident ad nauseam it is particularly inappropriate to mention it. In my case I must stop shouting at the TV every time someone refers to "looping the loop" - a term which probably died out in aviation circles c 1925 but which the media still won't let go
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 22:31
  #303 (permalink)  
 
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What utter nonsense from Darren Sharp the so called expert the BBC have given the oxygen of self publicity too and what entitles him to spout his nonsense more than me (with similar years of aviation experience). I hope in time his nonsense will be shown up for what it is.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 23:07
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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Quote from r75:
"Perhaps I am getting old but someone just walking about filming such scenes..."

That would indeed be callous, but perhaps we shouldn't jump to conclusions in this case. The photographer and a companion are clearly investigating at least one crushed car, and discussing if there's anything they can do to help. We don't know what the camera was, or how it was being held. It might even be a head-mounted camera, as may also have been used by the hotelier who stalked the Tunis gunman, although I don't know if they are available with a zoom lens. I believe the emergency services are increasingly using similar devices themselves.
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Old 24th Aug 2015, 23:13
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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Straight question - what happens to powered flying controls in the Hunter in the event of loss of engine power - no, not second guessing the investigation, just interested


Dreadful accident and heartfelt condolences to all involved in any way
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 00:21
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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To bring discussions back to a more technical level, can I ask anyone on here who may be familiar with MB's Mark 4 or 5 seat (which I believe is appropriate for this mark of aircraft whether there is an interlock between the canopy jettisoning and seat sequencing? Reason I ask is that in one well known tabloid's sequence of very graphic photos you can clearly see at the point of impact the unique T bird canopy being thrown open, presumably by the force of impact, but still attached by the hinge. The next photo in the sequence shows the canopy closed again seemingly having remained hinged somehow.

With my limited experience of the two seat Hunters I recall the canopy to be a substantial affair, much like the Lightning T5 which as the Thunder City accident showed, stopped the seat from sequencing if the canopy has not jettisoned. Is i the same on the two seat Hunter? Parts of the media tonight are suggesting that Andy was found outside of the aircraft and even the BBC mentioned the hazard the seat presented to the recovery but there is no sign of the gas tube I would expect to see had the ejection been initiated.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 00:58
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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Wander - if the PFCs fail they revert to manual - the controls are heavy but the ac is perfectly controllable. But, IIRC, as long as the engine is windmilling the hydraulic pump will be developing pressure and the controls will remain powered unless an excessive load is placed upon them.

From the video, there is no obvious indication of an engine malfunction - but it can not be entirely discounted, especially a partial compressor failure where the engine keeps running but develops significantly less thrust.

That said - Andrewn, I'm not sure what you are referring to; I can see no evidence of mechanical failure, etc.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 03:01
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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In a Hunter T7 or T8 there is no interlock between the canopy jettison system and the ejection seat firing mechanism. The canopy should jettison when one of the handles is pulled but if it does not the seat smashes through the top perspex panel.

If the hydraulics fail you get at least 1 1/2 full deflection cycles from each of the elevator and aileron accumulators before the controls revert to manual; this is checked after shutdown on an airtest.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 04:39
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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According to the Telegraph, the venerable Capt 'Winkle' Brown, who was there, is suggesting pilot error.

I suppose you'd have to call that 'expert opinion' - if nothing else...

As for Mr Sharp on the BBC interview, the least said, the better.

Last edited by XV490; 25th Aug 2015 at 04:53.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 04:47
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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Any idea who Darren Sharp is in this clip from the BBC:

Shoreham pilot 'had to make a tough decision' - BBC News

Biggest load of tripe I have ever heard in my opinion. It seems Mr Sharp thinks that the aircraft was put down on the A27 on purpose as he had lost power instead of going for the airfield. Seeing as the runway was clear at the time of the Hunter display, then there would be little point in not using it and going for a busy major A road!

Where do the BBC find these so-called 'experts'?!!! I hope they didn't pay him!

I heard him on Radio 5 yesterday. They also had a "respected" aviation journalist (David somebody) who said something like "No publicity is bad publicity" in the context of airshows continuing and people attending. Better just to STFU.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 06:03
  #311 (permalink)  
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. We don't know what the camera was, or how it was being held. It might even be a head-mounted camera
Yes we do. Second half of the video after they have crossed the road and are approaching the crushed car; the sun is behind the cameraman and casting his shadow on the road, he is holding his phone elevated in his right hand.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 06:29
  #312 (permalink)  
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Any idea who Darren Sharp is in this clip from the BBC:

Shoreham pilot 'had to make a tough decision' - BBC News

Biggest load of tripe I have ever heard in my opinion. It seems Mr Sharp thinks that the aircraft was put down on the A27 on purpose as he had lost power instead of going for the airfield. Seeing as the runway was clear at the time of the Hunter display, then there would be little point in not using it and going for a busy major A road!

Where do the BBC find these so-called 'experts'?!!! I hope they didn't pay him!

LJ
I have just watched the clip with "expert Darren Sharpe" and words truly fail me, but that will be the AAIB investigation completed.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 06:35
  #313 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dr Jekyll View Post
I have no intention of apologising Old Fat One, I have nothing to apologise for. I didn't dispute that Concorde was grounded eventually, I disputed your assertion that it was grounded IMMEDIATELY, it wasn't. BA kept on flying their Concordes for a couple of weeks. It was only grounded after relevant facts came to light early in the investigation.

Amusingly, the report you linked to makes it perfectly clear that BA kept flying them after the crash, so they can't have been grounded.

So despite what you say, the grounding of an entire aircraft type the day after the crash is a highly unusual step.
As you correctly say, the entire Concorde fleet(s) was not grounded.

However it is equally true to say the entire Hunter fleet has been grounded; if hasn't.

What is true in both cases is that the National authorities have grounded all of that type on their registers; the grounding would only be advisory for foreign registered aircraft.

What have the Swiss done?
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 07:28
  #314 (permalink)  
 
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FB, agree, annoys me too.

I think the Beeb graphic was either lifted from the other thread or created for them by the ppruner on that thread.
Indeed PN,

Tanker Trash Nav,

I'll take it on advice you're quite right of course. I was simply making an observation - as many have done - about the media's professional sweeping comments, some often chosen carefully to affect a certain opinion and 'stunt' sounds far less dignified than 'aerobatics'. And I'm sure nobody would wilfully intend to trivialise what I'm sure are sincere condolences from one and all

By the Way, Salad Dodger,

My comments are simply an observation of yet further poor media presentation, despite the likelihood that they are always speaking to experts. They use simplistic, dramatic and frivolous language when it suits, and don't ever try and interpret my comments on what, I'll grant, is a miner point, as an indication of my immaturity or lack of appreciation for the tragedy which took place on Saturday, you're wrong. Now I don't know if you lost anyone in the accident, if so you have my deepest sympathy, but if this is just you having a pop by trying to represent the opinion and emotion of millions then It's now quite clear to me that you are particularly standoffishly arrogant, I've read your unwarranted vitriol in previous posts against others. Just lighten up and broaden your sense of accommodation.

FB

Last edited by Finningley Boy; 25th Aug 2015 at 09:15.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 07:33
  #315 (permalink)  
 
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One photo quite clearly shows pilot slumped fwd in seat prior to impact. Could this be g lock where pilot blacked out? Do these older pilots still undergo strict medicals that allow for high G aerobatics? Same with Gnat in my opinion. Both crashed after performing high g manoeuvres. Look at Reds crash few years back. Same thing. Even happens to the medically fit pros.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 07:44
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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I'm surprised that Eric 'Winkle' Brown was reported as having opined that 'pilot-error' was a major contributor to the crash.
I'd thought he was a bit more astute than that.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 07:59
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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Have to agree with the comments on so called expert Darren, how could someone with 21 years flying experience reckon he saw the Hunter take off? Thought it flew out of North Weald! I was there on the Beach and heard her transiting from the east then saw her turn and run in to start the display. Thought the runway at Shoreham was too short for a Hunter T7 to land or take off?
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 08:07
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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The Hunter 7 has a gaseous anti-g system; if that fails unexpectedly you might well grey out. But it's a pretty reliable system and the +g available in the accident manoeuvre would seem to have been less than would cause the pilot to lose consciousness if the anti-g system failed.

However, one video shows wing rock prior to ground impact; to me this would indicate that the pilot was conscious and attempting to recover from the dive.

The 100-ser Avon is prone to compressor surge with rapid throttle movement as the fuel control units are rather primitive. Disturbingly, an accident report into an earlier Hunter F4 accident at Dunsfold included the statement:

....records kept on a computerised database between 1980 and 1992 showed 22 cases involving the Avon Mk 122 engine where engine speed had dropped and subsequent engineering investigation had not established a clear cause. Anecdotal evidence indicated that Avon Mk 122 engines had suffered from unexplained power reductions from time to time during RAF service, but in most cases the aircraft had returned safely and the subsequent RAF engineering investigations, including related engine ground runs, had failed to identify associated causes or to reproduce the symptoms.
(The Dunsfold accident considered that it was possible that the pilot had operated the HP pump isolation switch in error, when reaching for the display smoke switch which had been installed nearby. Unless the throttle is closed when the HPPIS is selected to ISOLATE, this would have caused sufficient overfuelling to destroy the engine very quickly, which would have been obvious to external observers. As there was no such pre-impact fire seen in any of the Shoreham videos, I doubt whether any HPPIS operation had been made in this instance).

Until the AAIB has completed its work, technical cause cannot be ruled out. So those self-professed 'experts' pointing their fingers at aircrew error need to keep open minds whilst the real experts do their sad work. I am also very surprised that Capt. Brown has suggested that pilot error was the cause of this accident.

Nevertheless, pulling to the buffet with a partial loss of thrust would lead to a greater than anticipated rate of descent. If that happens in the last quarter of a looping manoeuvre at low level, chances of recovery to level flight are slim.

Raising the base height for jet aircraft aerobatics by non-military operators would seem reasonable, so I hope that the CAA's initial ban will only apply until a thorough analysis of other options has been completed.
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 08:20
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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I see the Daily Telegraph are being equally daft at roling out "experts"; anyone know who Leslie Hatcher, 71, a former RAF aerobatics instructor is?
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Old 25th Aug 2015, 08:23
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Spot on post BEagle.
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