Creamie
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly my experience, stanwell. Probably everyone was a slow learner compared to him. Mine was a very nice guy and an even better pilot; the dials magically stood still when he took control. Total natural. But he was unsympathetic, uncomprehending even, when I couldn't produce the same magic. In fact he probably thought I was just mucking about. Still, haven't broken anything 13,000hrs later..
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England's green and pleasant land
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have seen PhDs fail to be effective teachers.
From my personal POV the assessment of "Creamie" suitability was based upon your aircraft handling skill, capacity to learn/retain quickly and overall credibility (professionalism, bearing and communication skills), albeit on the Hawk/Tucano. Perfectly recruited for the task!
As a Front Line instructor I witnessed both Creamies and ab-initio pilots on the OCU re-datum their expectations of grandeur in short order when they realised there was a hell of a lot more to being an RAF pilot than demonstrating a stalling package with perfect "instructional patter."
Cometh the hour, cometh the man (or woman)... was/is always true.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MSOCS, our chaplain had worked at Los Alamos before he saw the light, brilliant mathematician, I think, but couldn't teach for toffee. Good hell fire and examination preacher though. In a parish church in Cleator Moor he once burnt the News of the World.
PN Cleator Moor, a real den of iniquity in west Cumbria.
I'm not a pilot, apart from around 500 hours solo gliding, but, I would have thought that the propensity to communicate was the main criteria for those selected as QFIs in the RAF. Firstly I would expect that anyone who would have passed their flying training to be competent in every respect. Perhaps then that "Creamies" were selected on the basis of their ability to both fly the aircraft and communicate the techniques to trainees. As I said, my flying as a pilot is limited, but I offer a small example. Shortly before I was sent solo in a Glider, my instructor told me to stop listening to him, and start telling him what I thought, and then carry out the action proposed, if I heard no objection. To that point I had sat, flown and hung on every word the instructor uttered. He gave me licence to think for myself, and the belief that I was capable. I was solo the same day, and will never forget his advice, he was a student at Cranwell at the time. I bet he heard that during his training.
Smudge
I'm not a pilot, apart from around 500 hours solo gliding, but, I would have thought that the propensity to communicate was the main criteria for those selected as QFIs in the RAF. Firstly I would expect that anyone who would have passed their flying training to be competent in every respect. Perhaps then that "Creamies" were selected on the basis of their ability to both fly the aircraft and communicate the techniques to trainees. As I said, my flying as a pilot is limited, but I offer a small example. Shortly before I was sent solo in a Glider, my instructor told me to stop listening to him, and start telling him what I thought, and then carry out the action proposed, if I heard no objection. To that point I had sat, flown and hung on every word the instructor uttered. He gave me licence to think for myself, and the belief that I was capable. I was solo the same day, and will never forget his advice, he was a student at Cranwell at the time. I bet he heard that during his training.
Smudge
Guest
Posts: n/a
You Never Know.
On the "Arnold" Scheme in the US, our Instructors in Basic and Advanced Schools were, to a man, last year's "creamed off " 2/Lieuts from Flight School.
Came Pearl Harbor; they were left behind instructing while all their erstwhile companions were going overseas for glory and promotion.
They were sick as parrots !
Danny42C.
Came Pearl Harbor; they were left behind instructing while all their erstwhile companions were going overseas for glory and promotion.
They were sick as parrots !
Danny42C.
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Did I Tell You I Was A Harrier Pilot
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
A long time ago, someone told me that "stick time counts". And that adage has proven to mostly be true - in my experience at least. There are elements of (student) talent (most certainly) and the quality of instruction does help (which is why some B2s are kept away from those who are struggling) when it comes to encouraging good results. Good instructors and bad instructors are always part of the mix, and many of us have managed to get to where we are because of and in-spite of those instructors...
The creamie/FAIP concept facilitates giving young-blood some valuable stick time, usually on those less complex / more basic sortie profiles, whilst ensuring that the number of take-offs equals the number of successful landings - at a reduced cost to the tax payer. It's the bottom line - so to speak.
I had the pleasure of watching my course-mates go off to war in the former Yugoslavia... That feeling of being parrot-sick has never quite been forgotten!
The creamie/FAIP concept facilitates giving young-blood some valuable stick time, usually on those less complex / more basic sortie profiles, whilst ensuring that the number of take-offs equals the number of successful landings - at a reduced cost to the tax payer. It's the bottom line - so to speak.
I had the pleasure of watching my course-mates go off to war in the former Yugoslavia... That feeling of being parrot-sick has never quite been forgotten!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hampshire
Age: 74
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cultural Differences?
Back in the 90s, I was leading a team with members from many of the Western Europe countries, and did a lot of reading on the differences between the cultures of the different nationalities.
One of the examples that I recall (and it may well be hypocraphal), was that the Royal Air Force took their best students from a Course and brought them back immediately as Instructors (that may explain the Creamies bit), and the French Air Force took their less able students.
The RAF logic was that if you’re really good at something, then it sets a standard to which the student can aspire. As already mentioned, the proviso has to be that the really good flyers are capable of explaining to a less able student what it was that they were doing and that the student should emulate. Ever tried to explain to one of your children how to ride a bicycle? The French logic was that by requiring a perfectly competent but perhaps less outstanding pilot to spend a tour instructing he would improve his skills and be able also to empathise better with the students. All of us have had the experience of only really finding out how much we know about a subject by being facing with the requirement to teach it.
Any QFIs done an exchange with L’ecole de l'air and could perhaps comment on the veracity of this story?
One of the examples that I recall (and it may well be hypocraphal), was that the Royal Air Force took their best students from a Course and brought them back immediately as Instructors (that may explain the Creamies bit), and the French Air Force took their less able students.
The RAF logic was that if you’re really good at something, then it sets a standard to which the student can aspire. As already mentioned, the proviso has to be that the really good flyers are capable of explaining to a less able student what it was that they were doing and that the student should emulate. Ever tried to explain to one of your children how to ride a bicycle? The French logic was that by requiring a perfectly competent but perhaps less outstanding pilot to spend a tour instructing he would improve his skills and be able also to empathise better with the students. All of us have had the experience of only really finding out how much we know about a subject by being facing with the requirement to teach it.
Any QFIs done an exchange with L’ecole de l'air and could perhaps comment on the veracity of this story?
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hampshire
Age: 74
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You mean, as in: "If Typhoo put the 't' in Britain, who put the .... in Scunthorpe?"
Actually, I think that is how the word is spelt, but I stand to be corrected...
Actually, I think that is how the word is spelt, but I stand to be corrected...
Ist Tour Instructing
You have to remember that the military already have had quite a 'selection' process before anyone becomes a student,therefore the process then becomes one of super selection rather than more training.In a peacetime role when numbers required are low they can afford to be 'VERY SELECTIVE' and 'slow learners' will be lost on the way.Pilots should also have an ability to 'teach themselves' because apart from anything else they may well come across a situation that has never been covered in training.Handling skills will come with experience, but decision making is something a pilot has to develop quickly.
A first tour instructor also will remember the items that were important to him/her when training and that is quite important.In the civvy world where you have to train rather than chop because of the cost implications; instructors have to deal with a far more varied background of students so if the learning process is a little slower but 'gets there' the system works.
I think some basic flying training (power or gliding) is a valid input into good management skill training as it really sorts out the decision making in a very clear way.
A first tour instructor also will remember the items that were important to him/her when training and that is quite important.In the civvy world where you have to train rather than chop because of the cost implications; instructors have to deal with a far more varied background of students so if the learning process is a little slower but 'gets there' the system works.
I think some basic flying training (power or gliding) is a valid input into good management skill training as it really sorts out the decision making in a very clear way.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hampshire
Age: 74
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I stand corrected...
... and, needless to say, by the Mehmsahib:
The benefit (?), of reading Classical Greek at University...
apocryphal
The benefit (?), of reading Classical Greek at University...
Yes, bloody annoying, isn't it? 
My Dad has his own tales of being streamed for instructor after Basic Flying Training on the Commonwealth Scheme in Canada. He was there from 1942 to 44, initially as a Sgt then commissioned to Plt Off before heading back by convoy to train as Battle Casualty Replacement on Dakotas after Overlord.
Apparently if you were commissioned and achieved 1000 hours instructional in one year there was an AFC in it for you. If, however, you achieved this total while non-commissioned you were simply taken off instructional duties for a short while and told not to hog the flying programme for the other blokes.
He loved Canada and the Canadians; his tales of flying around Saskatchewan and Manitoba in Airspeed Oxfords, NA Harvards and DH Tiger Moths - and what he got up to later - were a major reason why I chose this way of life.
Not that my own experience of creamies was that good - just as many have described earlier. My initial Fg Off QFI - initials DH - had difficulty working out why ex-squaddie Thud (with no flying experience) didn't pick things up as quickly as he had. Cue early instructor change, and all went well after that. On reaching the rotary world, I was delighted to find that every QHI had been around the buoy for a few years before being allowed to inculcate the newbies.
Apparently if you were commissioned and achieved 1000 hours instructional in one year there was an AFC in it for you. If, however, you achieved this total while non-commissioned you were simply taken off instructional duties for a short while and told not to hog the flying programme for the other blokes.
He loved Canada and the Canadians; his tales of flying around Saskatchewan and Manitoba in Airspeed Oxfords, NA Harvards and DH Tiger Moths - and what he got up to later - were a major reason why I chose this way of life.
Not that my own experience of creamies was that good - just as many have described earlier. My initial Fg Off QFI - initials DH - had difficulty working out why ex-squaddie Thud (with no flying experience) didn't pick things up as quickly as he had. Cue early instructor change, and all went well after that. On reaching the rotary world, I was delighted to find that every QHI had been around the buoy for a few years before being allowed to inculcate the newbies.
PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So the 'creamy' banter continues, nearly 30 years after I became one! Humble apologies to all those creamy victims who had to suffer our obviously less than sympathetic approach.
It may interest some to know that (in my time at least) we were sent to the multi-engine and rotary worlds for short detachments to learn about the qualities required for those roles. I remember being given a drinking cut-off time by a VC10 skipper on a nightstop in Dulles, also getting the chance to fly Gazelle and Wessex.
It may interest some to know that (in my time at least) we were sent to the multi-engine and rotary worlds for short detachments to learn about the qualities required for those roles. I remember being given a drinking cut-off time by a VC10 skipper on a nightstop in Dulles, also getting the chance to fly Gazelle and Wessex.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bath
Age: 71
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all for giving me a bit of an insight into flying training. I used to think it was a case of sitting back & enjoying the view, until I saw that 'Landing instruction' video from the 'Fighter pilot' TV series.
In fact, watching that video made me glad that I stuck with large spanners & grease.
In fact, watching that video made me glad that I stuck with large spanners & grease.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Retirement home..
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
every time he put his hands on the controls, all the needles pointed to the exact numbers
As Teeteringhead wrote, the rotary world didn't have creamies. However, as I discovered, they sometimes sent young-and-not-too-happy-about-it second tourists to become QHIs.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oxon
Age: 92
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst not actually being a "creamy" I might as well have been.
In 1951 I was demobbed from 229 OCU after two years national service. Five months later I rejoined the RAF and reported to Adastral House for posting instructions, to be asked what I wanted to do. I replied "fly Meteors as a fighter pilot". My man wandered off down the corridor and came back to say "go to South Cerney for 143 CFS course on Prentices and Meteors". At this stage my experience was 320 hours.
So I completed the course and went for my final interview with the Commandant, Air Cdre Selway, and the chief instructor, Gp Capt Coles. They shuffled through my files and said that they couldn't find anything about my initial interview at CFS. I explained that I'd not had one but had been posted there even though I wanted to be a fighter pilot. "Wait outside" they said. Eventually I was recalled to be told that CFS select their students and only as I had completed the course and was a B1 category were the prepared to make this exception. I'd have been happy if it had gone the other way. So it was off to an AFS to instruct on Meteors.
So there I was teaching all ranks from sergeant to group captain (it was nice too be addressed as "sir" by a senior officer student, which was the rule in those days). One afternoon (I was just 22) I found one of my students of the same age crying his eyes out. He told me his parents were divorcing. I judged him unsafe to fly at that time so though he didn't want it I phoned the OC Flying Wing and dropped the problem in his lap. I knew some of my limitations!
I learned a lot about flying and a little about life on that tour. Eventually when I left the Service at age 38 I was still a B1 instructor (there had never seemed to be a need to recat), was the wing standards officer at an OCU and still qualified on Meteors. Nobody told me that my instructional technique was crap though it may well have been.
In 1951 I was demobbed from 229 OCU after two years national service. Five months later I rejoined the RAF and reported to Adastral House for posting instructions, to be asked what I wanted to do. I replied "fly Meteors as a fighter pilot". My man wandered off down the corridor and came back to say "go to South Cerney for 143 CFS course on Prentices and Meteors". At this stage my experience was 320 hours.
So I completed the course and went for my final interview with the Commandant, Air Cdre Selway, and the chief instructor, Gp Capt Coles. They shuffled through my files and said that they couldn't find anything about my initial interview at CFS. I explained that I'd not had one but had been posted there even though I wanted to be a fighter pilot. "Wait outside" they said. Eventually I was recalled to be told that CFS select their students and only as I had completed the course and was a B1 category were the prepared to make this exception. I'd have been happy if it had gone the other way. So it was off to an AFS to instruct on Meteors.
So there I was teaching all ranks from sergeant to group captain (it was nice too be addressed as "sir" by a senior officer student, which was the rule in those days). One afternoon (I was just 22) I found one of my students of the same age crying his eyes out. He told me his parents were divorcing. I judged him unsafe to fly at that time so though he didn't want it I phoned the OC Flying Wing and dropped the problem in his lap. I knew some of my limitations!
I learned a lot about flying and a little about life on that tour. Eventually when I left the Service at age 38 I was still a B1 instructor (there had never seemed to be a need to recat), was the wing standards officer at an OCU and still qualified on Meteors. Nobody told me that my instructional technique was crap though it may well have been.