RAF Typhoons vs Indian Flankers
AFAIK, the P3E upgrade (of which E-Scan and Brimstone are parts) has been committed to and funded by the UK only so far (all the nations having signed up for P2E).
BAE is to fly a test E-Scan radar on IPA5 before the end of the year.
On the subject of the Indian Sukhoi report, given that the IAF said something very similar after supposedly wiping the floor with USAF F-15s in 2003 (I think) - which later proved to be not quite the whole story - are they not in danger of finding themselves being 'uninvited' to such joint events in the future.
BAE is to fly a test E-Scan radar on IPA5 before the end of the year.
On the subject of the Indian Sukhoi report, given that the IAF said something very similar after supposedly wiping the floor with USAF F-15s in 2003 (I think) - which later proved to be not quite the whole story - are they not in danger of finding themselves being 'uninvited' to such joint events in the future.
4.5 Gen fighters arguing about fighting at the merge is just sooo passe.
Don't you stick and rudder geriatrics know it's all about Gen 5s killing the opposition during flight briefing ?
Seriously, 3D thrust vectoring really doesn't matter unless you are very slow and trying to make all that fancy high alpha stuff work, after all - speed is life, right ? RAF Typhoon pilots have always had an unhealthy "thing" about the Su-30MKI, having previously stated that it's the one aircraft they (the Typhoon jockeys) can't live with at the merge. Was it Sun Tzu who said that the fight is won or lost before the battle ever begins ?
Strangely all this talk of 4.5s twirling around each other 500m apart and trying to make their silly little HMCS lock on to each other for a high angle off boresight kill is making me a Belieber about the whole F-35 argument. Who coulda thunk it ?
Don't you stick and rudder geriatrics know it's all about Gen 5s killing the opposition during flight briefing ?
Seriously, 3D thrust vectoring really doesn't matter unless you are very slow and trying to make all that fancy high alpha stuff work, after all - speed is life, right ? RAF Typhoon pilots have always had an unhealthy "thing" about the Su-30MKI, having previously stated that it's the one aircraft they (the Typhoon jockeys) can't live with at the merge. Was it Sun Tzu who said that the fight is won or lost before the battle ever begins ?
Strangely all this talk of 4.5s twirling around each other 500m apart and trying to make their silly little HMCS lock on to each other for a high angle off boresight kill is making me a Belieber about the whole F-35 argument. Who coulda thunk it ?
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Too many Chiefs Not Enough Indians :-)
Hello All,
Long time lurker on the Mil forum - what fantastic stories about the RAF aircraft and the culture. Also followed folks like Courtney Mil to his brilliant blog (A big thank you Sir!)
So, why am I posting for the first time in so many years. As an Indian, to provide some perspective on why the story is being reported the way it is, but also to provide another POV about the topic itself, more in tune and tenor with a "professional" way to look at things.
So, a few points:
1. The IAF is a modern, professional force, but has a long way to go in terms of media management. Take a look at its official website, to see how out of sync it is with certain aspects of modernity. The "outrageous" claims are more a function of clumsy media interaction than any design.
2. As many have pointed out, there is a pattern to such "chest thumping", and pandering to a "domestic audience". Why doesn't the IAF learn and Indians "grow up"? These are cultural issues and take much longer time to resolve. Observers of English football and its media coverage might see a parallel
3. Back to specifics, WVR is an IAF specialty simply because our main threat was mostly WVR until a few years ago. We practice it rather a lot. Add the Su-30s party tricks - the TVC (Courtney's observations on the drawbacks are bang on), and the HMDS cued off-boresight Archer. Then add the extra pair of eyeballs in the back to NOT lose sight and therefore fight. Plus we had some of our TACDE grads (Fighter Weapons School equivalent) flying. 12-0 kill ratios be damned but the IAF probably got more than a few clean kills.
BVR though is a steep learning curve, we got AWACs just a few years back, and currently too few platforms to train and bridge the huge gap with RAF and USAF in a short time. Notice the reportage "paper over" those results accordingly
4. Whats really positive and gets lost in the shrillness, is that the IAF which was super sensitive about radar usage and "joint" working in previous exercises has been much more open on all these parameters in the current edition. The number of exercises with US and allies is only going up.
"Indradhanush" is Hindi for rainbow - many Indians would love to get all colors of perspective on how the IAF and RAF fared, not just the brown and white one.
Long time lurker on the Mil forum - what fantastic stories about the RAF aircraft and the culture. Also followed folks like Courtney Mil to his brilliant blog (A big thank you Sir!)
So, why am I posting for the first time in so many years. As an Indian, to provide some perspective on why the story is being reported the way it is, but also to provide another POV about the topic itself, more in tune and tenor with a "professional" way to look at things.
So, a few points:
1. The IAF is a modern, professional force, but has a long way to go in terms of media management. Take a look at its official website, to see how out of sync it is with certain aspects of modernity. The "outrageous" claims are more a function of clumsy media interaction than any design.
2. As many have pointed out, there is a pattern to such "chest thumping", and pandering to a "domestic audience". Why doesn't the IAF learn and Indians "grow up"? These are cultural issues and take much longer time to resolve. Observers of English football and its media coverage might see a parallel
3. Back to specifics, WVR is an IAF specialty simply because our main threat was mostly WVR until a few years ago. We practice it rather a lot. Add the Su-30s party tricks - the TVC (Courtney's observations on the drawbacks are bang on), and the HMDS cued off-boresight Archer. Then add the extra pair of eyeballs in the back to NOT lose sight and therefore fight. Plus we had some of our TACDE grads (Fighter Weapons School equivalent) flying. 12-0 kill ratios be damned but the IAF probably got more than a few clean kills.
BVR though is a steep learning curve, we got AWACs just a few years back, and currently too few platforms to train and bridge the huge gap with RAF and USAF in a short time. Notice the reportage "paper over" those results accordingly
4. Whats really positive and gets lost in the shrillness, is that the IAF which was super sensitive about radar usage and "joint" working in previous exercises has been much more open on all these parameters in the current edition. The number of exercises with US and allies is only going up.
"Indradhanush" is Hindi for rainbow - many Indians would love to get all colors of perspective on how the IAF and RAF fared, not just the brown and white one.
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Interesting & balanced last post.
At least the comments made in the press by the CO are not a form of 'softening up' prior to asking for a re-bid on the Fighter contract by Eurofighter.
If the Tiffie / Eufi is so poor, why would the IAF want to buy it?
At least the comments made in the press by the CO are not a form of 'softening up' prior to asking for a re-bid on the Fighter contract by Eurofighter.
If the Tiffie / Eufi is so poor, why would the IAF want to buy it?
Last edited by Finnpog; 9th Aug 2015 at 06:19. Reason: Typo
MrCurious,
A good post. Thank you for putting the whole thing in perspective. If you've seen the poorly updated UK MOD website, the IAF one doesn't look quite so bad!
Very interesting perspective there. Thanks again.
A good post. Thank you for putting the whole thing in perspective. If you've seen the poorly updated UK MOD website, the IAF one doesn't look quite so bad!
Very interesting perspective there. Thanks again.
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It was the journalist making it up as he went. The GC isn't quoted as saying it. There are a few well known UK/USA journalists that do the same thing, It's not just an Indian fault.
Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises
According to Group Captain Srivastav, his pilots showed "flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional."
Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".
"The hosts were very good. They were ready to extend exceptional support."
"It was all about learning from each others experiences and to fine tune our own procedures."
Indian Air Force Sukhois Dominate UK Fighter Jets in Combat Exercises
According to Group Captain Srivastav, his pilots showed "flexibility and adaptability to a new environment and operating conditions and on this benchmark, I would rate them exceptional."
Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".
"The hosts were very good. They were ready to extend exceptional support."
"It was all about learning from each others experiences and to fine tune our own procedures."
How do you come to that conclusion a1bill? The journalist says he was told the 12-0 'score' by the IAF detachment commander. The fact that he doesn't quote him directly doesn't tell me otherwise. The quotes you have provided don't disprove anything he said, they just provide some additional information and (maybe) context.
Name names, or as John Major famously said; "Put up or shut up."
There are a few well known UK/USA journalists that do the same thing
Courtney - thanks very much for pointing me at Spanky Clifton’s excellent account. What a great read. And, as you suggest, a fascinating one-para demolition of the thrust vector concept!
I also enjoyed the idea of his being cleared to take off for his first MiG-29 solo by his 9-year-old daughter...
How To Win In A Dogfight: Stories From A Pilot Who Flew F-16s And MiGs
for anyone who missed it first time round
Thanks also to Fonsini and Mr Curious for providing, for me at least, new considerations.
airsound
I also enjoyed the idea of his being cleared to take off for his first MiG-29 solo by his 9-year-old daughter...
How To Win In A Dogfight: Stories From A Pilot Who Flew F-16s And MiGs
for anyone who missed it first time round
Thanks also to Fonsini and Mr Curious for providing, for me at least, new considerations.
airsound
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@Mel, did you read the link to the article of Group Captain Srivastav? The claim of 12:0 in the opening sentence wasn't verified by a quote from Srivastav. In fact his quoted word says that Group Captain Srivastav told NDTV his pilots performed "fairly well" though "quantifying [the results] is difficult".
I did read it, but you don't need to quote someone directly to report what they said - it's called 'reported speech'.
Had the journalist really made up the 12-0 score, as you claim, I rather think that the MoD would have just come out and said so, rather than it's more diplomatic 'made for a domestic audience' response.
Had the journalist really made up the 12-0 score, as you claim, I rather think that the MoD would have just come out and said so, rather than it's more diplomatic 'made for a domestic audience' response.
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Mr Curious has it spot on.
I have worked with a fair few Indians working in the UK, and day to day they are the same as anyone else. Many of them 'needed' to tell me their family was the richest in the area when we first met, and I often got to hear just how expensive any weddings were. Once I got past that approx twenty Indian families are ALL the single richest family, and all the weddings were very expensive its business as normal.
Once we get past cultural differences it's easy to see that some countries need to claim to be the best as a cultural thing and not as arrogance or big headed ness.
This exercise will have been good practice for all kinds of things, and I'm sure both sides gained experience and learned new tricks.
This almost reminds me of a parents evening at a primary school. After the event a whole bunch of parents are keen to tell others that their child is top of the class (often with 20 tops of class), whereas the children just carry on as normal and all play nicely.
I have worked with a fair few Indians working in the UK, and day to day they are the same as anyone else. Many of them 'needed' to tell me their family was the richest in the area when we first met, and I often got to hear just how expensive any weddings were. Once I got past that approx twenty Indian families are ALL the single richest family, and all the weddings were very expensive its business as normal.
Once we get past cultural differences it's easy to see that some countries need to claim to be the best as a cultural thing and not as arrogance or big headed ness.
This exercise will have been good practice for all kinds of things, and I'm sure both sides gained experience and learned new tricks.
This almost reminds me of a parents evening at a primary school. After the event a whole bunch of parents are keen to tell others that their child is top of the class (often with 20 tops of class), whereas the children just carry on as normal and all play nicely.
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Welcome MrCurious!
Welcome MrCurious,
Although you're a self-confessed 'lurker' that was a wonderfully informative and balanced 1st post.
I had the pleasure of working with and being hosted by the IAF in 2013, so your perspective on a large, modern and professional force in a part of the world of continuing growing importance is welcome. I look forward to your increasing your score in the future.
S.O.
Although you're a self-confessed 'lurker' that was a wonderfully informative and balanced 1st post.
I had the pleasure of working with and being hosted by the IAF in 2013, so your perspective on a large, modern and professional force in a part of the world of continuing growing importance is welcome. I look forward to your increasing your score in the future.
S.O.
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Thank you to all those who have been so generous with their feedback and sharing their own experiences.
I should quit while I am ahead, so would just like to say that any new info, even anecdotal (Rumor Network, right?) about the exercises from an RAF or UK media perspective would be great. Shall try and see through informal channels that folks back here know about it.
Of course, if there are any queries that I might attempt to answer, shoot and I'll emerge from my lurk
I should quit while I am ahead, so would just like to say that any new info, even anecdotal (Rumor Network, right?
) about the exercises from an RAF or UK media perspective would be great. Shall try and see through informal channels that folks back here know about it.Of course, if there are any queries that I might attempt to answer, shoot and I'll emerge from my lurk
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Apparently the UK protested in New Delhi and this was the result: Press Information Bureau
1. The fourth edition of the Indo-UK bilateral air exercise named Indradhanush was held in the UK from 21-31 July 2015. The 190-strong contingent of the IAF left India on 15 July 2015 for the overseas deployment and returned on 04 August 2015.
2. The air elements that took part in the air exercise this time were the Su-30 MKI, IL-78 tankers, C-17 and C-130J transport aircraft from the IAF and the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Voyager tanker, C-17 and C-130J from the RAF. In addition to the aircraft, the Indian Garud commandos participated alongside their British counterparts, the RAF Regiment of the Special Forces.
3. Such exercises are conducted under controlled conditions with mutually agreed weapons performance parameters, with the basic aim of learning from each other’s best practices. Additional advantages that accrue are greater understanding of each other’s general operational philosophy and exposure to a different operating environment. In combat exercises, definite objectives are laid down for each component participating. After the exercise, during debrief, a detailed analysis is carried out to assess the extent of achievement of laid down objectives. There are no classic wins and losses as no weapons are fired as per their actual capability.
4. Mutual exchange of ideas as regards operational philosophy for tactical and strategic missions has provided invaluable learning for both sides. The exercise provided opportunity for the exchange of ideas relating to concept of operations in a dynamic warfare environment. The bonhomie amongst personnel on both sides has been exceptional and in the true spirit of a bilateral exercise. The aircrew of both the Air Forces have performed exceptionally well, demonstrating their high standards of training, operational preparedness, flexibility and adaptability. The RAF had been very forthcoming in meeting all operational, maintenance and administrative requirements of the IAF contingent. Needless to say, the learning value from this interaction has been immense. The IAF looks forward to continue the engagement with RAF in the future as well.
Participation of IAF in Indo-UK
Bilateral Air Exercise-Indradhanush IV – July 2015
Bilateral Air Exercise-Indradhanush IV – July 2015
2. The air elements that took part in the air exercise this time were the Su-30 MKI, IL-78 tankers, C-17 and C-130J transport aircraft from the IAF and the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Voyager tanker, C-17 and C-130J from the RAF. In addition to the aircraft, the Indian Garud commandos participated alongside their British counterparts, the RAF Regiment of the Special Forces.
3. Such exercises are conducted under controlled conditions with mutually agreed weapons performance parameters, with the basic aim of learning from each other’s best practices. Additional advantages that accrue are greater understanding of each other’s general operational philosophy and exposure to a different operating environment. In combat exercises, definite objectives are laid down for each component participating. After the exercise, during debrief, a detailed analysis is carried out to assess the extent of achievement of laid down objectives. There are no classic wins and losses as no weapons are fired as per their actual capability.
4. Mutual exchange of ideas as regards operational philosophy for tactical and strategic missions has provided invaluable learning for both sides. The exercise provided opportunity for the exchange of ideas relating to concept of operations in a dynamic warfare environment. The bonhomie amongst personnel on both sides has been exceptional and in the true spirit of a bilateral exercise. The aircrew of both the Air Forces have performed exceptionally well, demonstrating their high standards of training, operational preparedness, flexibility and adaptability. The RAF had been very forthcoming in meeting all operational, maintenance and administrative requirements of the IAF contingent. Needless to say, the learning value from this interaction has been immense. The IAF looks forward to continue the engagement with RAF in the future as well.
Apparently the UK protested in New Delhi and this was the result: Press Information Bureau
That's a pretty anodyne (joint) communiqué that tells us nothing we don't already know. It does nothing to address the 12-0 claim and the IAF's lack of tact in reporting it, which I imagine was the whole point of issuing it in the first place.
To be honest, Mel, I wouldn't expect a public climb-down. It's done and expect the good Gp Capt has probably had tea and biscuits with, at least, his boss by now.