Why so many Tornado mid-airs in its early years?
Thread Starter
Why so many Tornado mid-airs in its early years?
Of the first twenty-four GR Tornado losses 9 were as a result of mid-air collisions. That is a surprising 37.5%! I am not aware of any other post-war fast-jet type experiencing such a statistic.
Why was this? Was it pre-occupation with the new 'toys' (HUD/moving map etc) that, ironically kept heads inside the cockpit instead of outside? I, personally, found that the positioning of the thick canopy arch in the front cockpit didn't help as it obscured the all-important 11 o'clock/1 o'clock sectors so one had to make a conscious effort to scan round it.
Is anyone aware of any other factors that might have led to this propensity to hit/be hit by other aircraft?
Why was this? Was it pre-occupation with the new 'toys' (HUD/moving map etc) that, ironically kept heads inside the cockpit instead of outside? I, personally, found that the positioning of the thick canopy arch in the front cockpit didn't help as it obscured the all-important 11 o'clock/1 o'clock sectors so one had to make a conscious effort to scan round it.
Is anyone aware of any other factors that might have led to this propensity to hit/be hit by other aircraft?
When else did we have eight relatively large squadrons of the same type on two adjacent bases all rushing around at high speed and low level in a very congested airspace where AD and muds could spar almost at will?
Of note is that none of the Tornadoes hit Tornadoes from other formations. When considering a Tornado-only problem, the first question in response must therefore be - Why did the other aircraft run into the Tornadoes?
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...0113_zd891.pdf
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...z393_za408.pdf
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...z116_za493.pdf
Just pulling off a few of the accident reports; with the Tornado-Alphajet collision, none of the 5 aircraft saw the collision aircraft approaching each other. With the Tornado/Jag off Cromer, none of the aircrew were looking in the right direction at the critical time, and the jag pilot's vision would have been obscured by cockpit ironmongery as well. In the Lake District mid-air, both aircraft were invisible to each other due to terrain. The low level routing system was changed after this.
So, I don't think it was a particular Tornado problem, it was just an inherent risk of intense low level flying. My personal guess is that, with the common use of HUDs/radalts, everybody's '250 feet' was now the same '250 feet'. There were probably quite a few close ones before that were avoided (and not even noticed) because of this.
I had an ex-Bucc QFI on Basic, who taught me to move my neck and shoulders as well as my head - I believe the Bucc had the worst ironmongery problem. From the time I spent flying F3s on low level sweep/escort, I don't recall the canopy arch being too bad. It was a bit bigger than the Hawk's, but with the roomy cockpit it was easy to move one's body to allow the head to look around it.
If anything, the 2 crew in the Tornado had a much better chance of having at least one set of eyes on lookout than a single-seat mud-mover.
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...0113_zd891.pdf
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...z393_za408.pdf
http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/m...z116_za493.pdf
Just pulling off a few of the accident reports; with the Tornado-Alphajet collision, none of the 5 aircraft saw the collision aircraft approaching each other. With the Tornado/Jag off Cromer, none of the aircrew were looking in the right direction at the critical time, and the jag pilot's vision would have been obscured by cockpit ironmongery as well. In the Lake District mid-air, both aircraft were invisible to each other due to terrain. The low level routing system was changed after this.
So, I don't think it was a particular Tornado problem, it was just an inherent risk of intense low level flying. My personal guess is that, with the common use of HUDs/radalts, everybody's '250 feet' was now the same '250 feet'. There were probably quite a few close ones before that were avoided (and not even noticed) because of this.
I had an ex-Bucc QFI on Basic, who taught me to move my neck and shoulders as well as my head - I believe the Bucc had the worst ironmongery problem. From the time I spent flying F3s on low level sweep/escort, I don't recall the canopy arch being too bad. It was a bit bigger than the Hawk's, but with the roomy cockpit it was easy to move one's body to allow the head to look around it.
If anything, the 2 crew in the Tornado had a much better chance of having at least one set of eyes on lookout than a single-seat mud-mover.
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 7th Aug 2015 at 09:40.
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Of the first twenty-four GR Tornado losses 9 were as a result of mid-air collisions. That is a surprising 37.5%! I am not aware of any other post-war fast-jet type experiencing such a statistic.
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This is very much a personal view but the GR1 was one of the first aircraft which had lots of internal toys to look at.
As a lowly SH man in the late 80's we were always on the lookout for non-deviating fins which inevitably stormed around the North German Plain as pairs/fourships. The best tactic was to stay low and accept the risk that a GR3 Mate might be at the same level!
PS. Did the crew recovery for the Tornado/Alpha Jet mid-air - not one of my happiest days.
As a lowly SH man in the late 80's we were always on the lookout for non-deviating fins which inevitably stormed around the North German Plain as pairs/fourships. The best tactic was to stay low and accept the risk that a GR3 Mate might be at the same level!
PS. Did the crew recovery for the Tornado/Alpha Jet mid-air - not one of my happiest days.
My recollection is that the internal toys gave me time to look out because I wasn't constantly staring at a map and the ground in front of the intake desperately trying to convince the nose-gunner that I knew where we were.
As to the Jag/GR1 off Cromer, the pilots were old colleagues. The Jag pilot was winched first; the GR1 pilot, upon arriving aboard, was surprised to see him and asked how long he had been on Sea Kings. 'About 5 minutes' was the reply.
Don't blame me if that is fiction, I got it from the GR1 pilot.
As to the Jag/GR1 off Cromer, the pilots were old colleagues. The Jag pilot was winched first; the GR1 pilot, upon arriving aboard, was surprised to see him and asked how long he had been on Sea Kings. 'About 5 minutes' was the reply.
Don't blame me if that is fiction, I got it from the GR1 pilot.
99, I was about to say the same thing. Displays that are more intuitive require less time to interpret. When your HUD is your primary flight instrument, you need to look in even less.
Fox3, agreed, the F3 canopy arch wasn't as bad as some others and you didn't have to move much to look round it.
I think the point about a very busy low level system is probably the really big factor here. And it wasn't just UK jets. A lot of other guys wanted to come and use the UKLFS because of the comparative lack of restrictions compared to, say, Germany.
Fox3, agreed, the F3 canopy arch wasn't as bad as some others and you didn't have to move much to look round it.
I think the point about a very busy low level system is probably the really big factor here. And it wasn't just UK jets. A lot of other guys wanted to come and use the UKLFS because of the comparative lack of restrictions compared to, say, Germany.
A quick scan of my logbook for July & August 1989 shows low level affil or escort/sweep on 16 sorties (only 4 of which were on a formal Exercise). The other aircraft included Danish F-16s, Canadian F-18s, and RAFG Harriers and Tornadoes. These were usually 4v4, and sometimes up to 4v16. There were usually unbriefed Target Of Opportunity engagements between the briefed ones. I particularly recall having to fight through a unbriefed 4 ship of F4s sweeping for 4 Tornadoes before reaching our 16 ship escorted briefed targets, all at low level. We were busy little bunnies in those days!
Ah, those halcyon days of daily 4-ships and the even better 4-ship OLF + evasion. Back then, they were the norm....sadly today it is very different.
What never ceases to surprise me is the (completely wrong in this case) imressions that others build up of something they know very little about. "Internal toys"? The beauty of the Tornado, even the GR1, was that just about everything took care of itself, even the fuel so there was really no need to look in (except when changing the IFF as the Italians insisted the IFF be located in the front cockpit). Radio changes .....Nav, navigation.....Nav (& Main Computer), etc etc.
I'm sure there were cases of Tornado GRs being caught flying long straight lines without manoeuvring or spotting "baddies" closing on them, but the same can be said for any ac (I've Fox 2'd enough F4s & F3s to know that's true...even bagged me an F-18 from OLF back then).
What never ceases to surprise me is the (completely wrong in this case) imressions that others build up of something they know very little about. "Internal toys"? The beauty of the Tornado, even the GR1, was that just about everything took care of itself, even the fuel so there was really no need to look in (except when changing the IFF as the Italians insisted the IFF be located in the front cockpit). Radio changes .....Nav, navigation.....Nav (& Main Computer), etc etc.
I'm sure there were cases of Tornado GRs being caught flying long straight lines without manoeuvring or spotting "baddies" closing on them, but the same can be said for any ac (I've Fox 2'd enough F4s & F3s to know that's true...even bagged me an F-18 from OLF back then).
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prpr00ne, I assume that you are referring to the Bruggen/Laarbruch squadrons but only one of the 9 mid-airs were in 2ATAF (Alphajets) the other 8 involved TTTE,TWCU and Marham so base proximity was not a factor.
Whilst instructing on the TWU in the late 70s, we often managed to bounce Tornados unseen and almost invariably found the nav with his head buried in the office and the pilot staring fixedly straight-ahead. I should add that when we were rushing around Wales at LL in our Hunters we rarely looked inside the cockpit as there was little to see apart from keeping a wary eye on fuel. Our lookout was thus pretty good.
I too have happy memories of the virtual free-for-all in 2ATAF. Many happy days spent in F4's attacking F104s, Mirages, AlphaJets, A!0s (a real challenge if they saw you coming which they usually did) as well as our own Jaguars and Buccaneers. I particularly remember one epic bunfight round the Peheim mast where every man and his dog piled in with in excess of 20 aircraft from at least the RAF,USAF, Luftwaffe and RNLAF - probably a couple of Belgiques too but didn't get close enough to see the whites of their eyes.
Whilst instructing on the TWU in the late 70s, we often managed to bounce Tornados unseen and almost invariably found the nav with his head buried in the office and the pilot staring fixedly straight-ahead. I should add that when we were rushing around Wales at LL in our Hunters we rarely looked inside the cockpit as there was little to see apart from keeping a wary eye on fuel. Our lookout was thus pretty good.
I too have happy memories of the virtual free-for-all in 2ATAF. Many happy days spent in F4's attacking F104s, Mirages, AlphaJets, A!0s (a real challenge if they saw you coming which they usually did) as well as our own Jaguars and Buccaneers. I particularly remember one epic bunfight round the Peheim mast where every man and his dog piled in with in excess of 20 aircraft from at least the RAF,USAF, Luftwaffe and RNLAF - probably a couple of Belgiques too but didn't get close enough to see the whites of their eyes.
Certainly recollect the Alpha not being easy to see head on.
One turned onto the runway in front of us when we were on the roll at 100kn and the first thing I noticed was the landing light as he faced us.
Fortunately, since we were in a TriStar, he noticed us and continued into a 180 off the runway again
One turned onto the runway in front of us when we were on the roll at 100kn and the first thing I noticed was the landing light as he faced us.
Fortunately, since we were in a TriStar, he noticed us and continued into a 180 off the runway again
A couple of thoughts nipva: the Tornados you bounced in the late 70s would have been test pilots, and who was it who taught them to stare straight ahead at low-level, TWU instructors perhaps?
In my experience, the aircraft type least likely to notice anyone else was the F-111. I've caught them debriefing on Guard and not noticing another aircraft just off their wingtip more than once.
Thread Starter
99CxH
Forgive me - you are absolutely right. TTTE didn't open until Jan'81 - indeed I flew the BBC cameraman for the inaugural air-air shots, Jan 21st and Jan 22nd according to my logbook. My bounce recollections must have been when operating from Chivenor in the mid 80s. As to instructing TP's - I don't recall any such beast passing through the portals of TWU as TPs. We certainly did not teach anyone to look straight ahead at any stage of flight, never mind at LL
Forgive me - you are absolutely right. TTTE didn't open until Jan'81 - indeed I flew the BBC cameraman for the inaugural air-air shots, Jan 21st and Jan 22nd according to my logbook. My bounce recollections must have been when operating from Chivenor in the mid 80s. As to instructing TP's - I don't recall any such beast passing through the portals of TWU as TPs. We certainly did not teach anyone to look straight ahead at any stage of flight, never mind at LL
I wondered how long it would take for the "I shot down every Tornado bomber with my Hunter, Hawk, Lightning, Phantom, F3, Shotgun etc" to pipe up? 'Course you did! You were flying a friendly skies "jump on what comes past" easy life!
Now, let us see..which type and crews have given the most in the last 30+ years?
OAP
Now, let us see..which type and crews have given the most in the last 30+ years?
OAP
