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MIG-29 Question?

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MIG-29 Question?

Old 19th Jul 2015, 22:04
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MIG-29 Question?

Today at RIAT during the Typhoon/Spitfire Battle of Britain display (which was outstanding in itself) the Polish Mig 29 was waiting at the holding point prior to its display slot, when roughly every 5mins or so it did a brief engine run up emitting a cracking amount of black exhaust smoke. I'm just curious, to what causes so much black smoke, and is this a normal pre-takeoff procedure when holding? Incidentally the answer was explained over the speaker during the display but it was perfectly timed with a climb on re-heat, so I don't think much was heard by anyone north of Swindon! Funnily, it was the only aircraft I could smell as well, which I thought was a brilliant two fingers to the emissions driven world we are constantly reminded about in modern life! Anyhow, up there with the best displays of the day.....thanks to all the crews, both air and ground, excellent day.

Thanks in advance for the answer...F26

Last edited by Fly26; 19th Jul 2015 at 22:37. Reason: Correction
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 22:35
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Funnily, it was the only aircraft I could smell as well, which I thought was a brilliant two fingers to the emissions driven world we are constantly reminded about in modern life!

Yeah!...screw the air we breathe, it's not like we couldn't last very long without it.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 01:30
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It is because of the design of the RD-33 engine combustion chamber on the earlier engines. The Klimow RD-33 was the first Russian turbofan jet engine in mass production. It has a one stage injector which is not as efficient as many western designs. A new version of that engine (RD-33MK) doesn’t smoke as much. Poland’s MiG-29s do not have upgraded engines because of political reasons and cost.

Sometime around 1998, Petr Izotov, V.Ya.Klimov plant chief designer was quoted as saying: “Smoke is absolutely subjective. It would be a problem if it would affect plane’s flight performance or engine characteristics. But it doesn’t!” Obviously the operational implications of being seen at much longer ranges was not mentioned.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 01:46
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Bevo, good answer and great pic. Thanks.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 02:39
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Reminds me of an old Mack truck with the puff limiter disconnected
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 07:27
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Almost as much smoke as a J79 Phantom.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 07:57
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Just an itsy-bitsy bit of smoke.



Almost as much as a B-52

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Old 20th Jul 2015, 08:09
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Thanks Bevo! I appreciate the answer, I thought there might be a more in depth reason for it. Brilliant picture, that's pretty much what we all saw. Sorry Bigbux I'm sure I heard between the noise they will be operational until 2030
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 08:40
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Originally Posted by Bevo View Post
It is because of the design of the RD-33 engine combustion chamber on the earlier engines. The Klimow RD-33 was the first Russian turbofan jet engine in mass production. It has a one stage injector which is not as efficient as many western designs. A new version of that engine (RD-33MK) doesn’t smoke as much. Poland’s MiG-29s do not have upgraded engines because of political reasons and cost.

Sometime around 1998, Petr Izotov, V.Ya.Klimov plant chief designer was quoted as saying: “Smoke is absolutely subjective. It would be a problem if it would affect plane’s flight performance or engine characteristics. But it doesn’t!” Obviously the operational implications of being seen at much longer ranges was not mentioned.
Holy crap!
Maybe one of its "secret tactics" is to smoke the enemy to death...
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 11:02
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I think they got a good deal on the F4's J79s
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 13:05
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I always hypothetically thought it would have been a good candidate for being re-engined with a pair of Eurojet EJ200 engines.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 19:56
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"I think they got a good deal on the F4's J79s "

Not likely, but they may have "copied" a feature without knowing its purpose. A few other items from the F4 made its way into Soviet aircraft.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 21:04
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Originally Posted by Bevo View Post
It is because of the design of the RD-33 engine combustion chamber on the earlier engines. The Klimow RD-33 was the first Russian turbofan jet engine in mass production. It has a one stage injector which is not as efficient as many western designs. A new version of that engine (RD-33MK) doesn’t smoke as much. Poland’s MiG-29s do not have upgraded engines because of political reasons and cost.

Sometime around 1998, Petr Izotov, V.Ya.Klimov plant chief designer was quoted as saying: “Smoke is absolutely subjective. It would be a problem if it would affect plane’s flight performance or engine characteristics. But it doesn’t!” Obviously the operational implications of being seen at much longer ranges was not mentioned.
Ignoring the smoke, looking at that picture, that's one hell of an aerodynamic beastie, Bit like the Viper when you get up REAL close and follow the lines....

Both had brilliant designers/teams IMO.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 21:48
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Bevo is correct about the combustor design. But, in addition, combustion temp is also an important factor. Colder=more smoke.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 06:06
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No Smoke without Fire.

Can't believe this hoary old one hasn't popped up yet:

(Voice from the cloud......):

"Never mind, sonny - when you grow up you'll be able to smoke, too !"

D.
 
Old 21st Jul 2015, 10:18
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Well, the J79 engined F4s were smoky, but then so were our Spey engined F4s; min burner killed the smoke.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:15
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The Speys had nothing on the J-79s, 27mm. Looking along a smoke trail, it was pretty obvious on the Ks and Ms, but nowhere near as bad.

Holy smoke!



Image credit: Phantom Pharewell, Wittmund, June 29th 2013 by Gerben Wessels, on Flickr
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:19
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^^^Oops, sorry. Huge photo. I'll leave it for a bit and then take it down if it's annoying.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:32
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Was the laying of smoke screens included in their training?
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:39
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plan was to choke the WP forces to death..............
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