A RAF C17 is going to Tunisia.Slow response from UK?
Uncle Ginsters.
Your point 1, clearances in particular of a weekend can be difficult to obtain, in fact I was part of a crew moving an ICU patient and to get a transit airfield management moving to be ready for our arrival as we had temp/runway length constraints our operations team contacted the minister of aviation for that country.
Your point 2, is very true unless you are moving the patient to a place of care that is a great improvement on what is available locally. One patient has been transferred to the Trauma ICU at the QE. Compared what may have been available locally a calculation of risk is required against benefit. For a transfer of this kind, you probably can't much improve on the level of care that a CCAST Team can provide. The other problem is finding a staffed bed in an appropriate ICU at the receiving hospital.
The local hospital may have limited resources to treat and manage the patients and that includes experience of the medical and nursing staff and that may influence the risk/benefit analysis.
This response may have been 72hrs after the actual event, but that is in no way 'slow'.
There are two key drivers for that timeline:
1. Diplomatic clearances. It may come as a surprise to many that we can't simply turn up to pick up our own from a foreign land.
2. The primary driver; patient condition. Moving a critical patient from an ICU to an AeroMed ac and then back to ICU at the far end is no mean feat. The patient has to be declared stable enough so that the move does not endanger them. This can take days or even weeks.
No doubt the crews/CCAST team were ready and waiting as needed but all of the pieces have to be in place first.
There are two key drivers for that timeline:
1. Diplomatic clearances. It may come as a surprise to many that we can't simply turn up to pick up our own from a foreign land.
2. The primary driver; patient condition. Moving a critical patient from an ICU to an AeroMed ac and then back to ICU at the far end is no mean feat. The patient has to be declared stable enough so that the move does not endanger them. This can take days or even weeks.
No doubt the crews/CCAST team were ready and waiting as needed but all of the pieces have to be in place first.
Your point 2, is very true unless you are moving the patient to a place of care that is a great improvement on what is available locally. One patient has been transferred to the Trauma ICU at the QE. Compared what may have been available locally a calculation of risk is required against benefit. For a transfer of this kind, you probably can't much improve on the level of care that a CCAST Team can provide. The other problem is finding a staffed bed in an appropriate ICU at the receiving hospital.
The local hospital may have limited resources to treat and manage the patients and that includes experience of the medical and nursing staff and that may influence the risk/benefit analysis.
Last edited by air pig; 30th Jun 2015 at 12:54.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The British government's illegal exploits in iraq and waste of time, money and lives in Afghanistan is the main reason these 'terrorists' are a bit pi$$ed off and killing innocent civilians on holiday.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Age: 70
Posts: 1,954
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting decision to send a C17 as opposed to a Voyager.
2. Loading stretcher patients in a C-17 does not require a high-lift loader like the A330.
3. Loading stretcher patients in an A330MRTT without a freighter door (which the Voyager does not have) is VERY difficult. A330MRTTs with no freighter door can essentially only handle ambulatory medevac patients.
Just found out one of my mates son's best mate is staying 100 yards from where the attack took place. She and her family are determined to finish their holiday.
According to the Beeb, the next C-17 out tonight/ tomorrow is to bring back the deceased and then HM Coroner start the chain of inquiry / inquests.
Last year I wrote up a detailed report on CCAST role during the decade or so during Afghanistan ops.
Atb speedy recovery to those medevaced today...and RIP to the deceased
According to the Beeb, the next C-17 out tonight/ tomorrow is to bring back the deceased and then HM Coroner start the chain of inquiry / inquests.
Last year I wrote up a detailed report on CCAST role during the decade or so during Afghanistan ops.
Atb speedy recovery to those medevaced today...and RIP to the deceased
chopper2004: good for them. Some of the wailing from tourists who are complaining that the holiday companies aren't doing enough to get them home has been disgusting, particularly as the reps have been doing everything they can to support the bereaved and the injured.
I heard an interview with the father of a young woman who was in hospital after receiving wounds in her limbs from a grenade blast, who was explaining that even the sound of the local language is panicking her. Perhaps those wanting to get home, most of whom I suspect were nowhere near the attack, would like to visit the injured and bereaved to get some perspective.
I heard an interview with the father of a young woman who was in hospital after receiving wounds in her limbs from a grenade blast, who was explaining that even the sound of the local language is panicking her. Perhaps those wanting to get home, most of whom I suspect were nowhere near the attack, would like to visit the injured and bereaved to get some perspective.
MTM, second your sentiments.
Originally Posted by Pious Pilot
With all due respect, bo110cks.
With all due respect, bo110cks.
Watching the arrival back at Brize Norton now. Does anyone else find it a little strange that the SWO is saluting the coffins? Fully agree with the need for a dignified repatriation service, and I am no QR geek, but it doesn't seem quite right?
Ah, actually that does ring a bell somewhere: social etiquette classes at Cranditz...along with saluting the Staish's wife and writing little thank you notes the next day!
Interesting point I heard just now about the full military honours repatriation. Is it a bad idea because it gives ISIS even more press coverage for their vile acts, or is it a good idea so that the Government can say to the country: "Look, this is now a war, these civilians are casualties of this war, let's start bombing ISIS in Libya/Syria/etc"!!!
Interesting point I heard just now about the full military honours repatriation. Is it a bad idea because it gives ISIS even more press coverage for their vile acts, or is it a good idea so that the Government can say to the country: "Look, this is now a war, these civilians are casualties of this war, let's start bombing ISIS in Libya/Syria/etc"!!!
Last edited by Training Risky; 1st Jul 2015 at 15:42. Reason: Extra thought
getting the FCO into gear over a weekend.
Sadly, since the Bali bombing and the Tsunami, this is a well-practised FCO capability, and not limited to 9-5, Monday to Friday. I know; I work in a 'front line' Embassy.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Civ/HAL/SHY/FYY/PWK/AAS/WAD/AVI/GPT/BZN/BSN/WAD/BAS/FLK/WIT/MND/WAD/WIT/WAD/Civ
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airpig & Uncle G
The Dips is not a problem (as AP would seem to already know) . These would have been dip'd under the standing no-notice authority by the DA/Amb level across France, Italy and Spain, Tunis would have been even higher!).
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)
--------------------------------
The delay would have been the nationality ID to enable relase of the bodies to the right nation.
How many people carry ID to a beach when wearing trunks or bikini/swimsuit?
I wouldn't!
The local authorities would have been trawling the hotels for rooms unexpectedly unoccupied (reported by cleaners) for several nights, searching them for fingerprints/DNA, comparisons with victims.
-------------------------------------
On a more compaassionate level, as someone who has served in BZN Ops in the past, and witnessed many a mil RePat, I can confirm that from the moment they were entrusted into UK care, they will have been treated with the utmost compassion & respect that the UK people consider normal & appropriate to the departed. May I wish my personal condolences to ALL families.
Especially to the family of the victim (& his patient wife) who shares a name with my brother, who has recently stayed at a hotel 2 doors along from that beach, what a spooky coinidence! - I have had to reassure several people (friends & family) that they were of the wrong assumption & that my brother was safely home in the UK and not involved, but still with the eirie feeling that someone sharing his name was a victim.
The Dips is not a problem (as AP would seem to already know) . These would have been dip'd under the standing no-notice authority by the DA/Amb level across France, Italy and Spain, Tunis would have been even higher!).
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)
--------------------------------
The delay would have been the nationality ID to enable relase of the bodies to the right nation.
How many people carry ID to a beach when wearing trunks or bikini/swimsuit?
I wouldn't!
The local authorities would have been trawling the hotels for rooms unexpectedly unoccupied (reported by cleaners) for several nights, searching them for fingerprints/DNA, comparisons with victims.
-------------------------------------
On a more compaassionate level, as someone who has served in BZN Ops in the past, and witnessed many a mil RePat, I can confirm that from the moment they were entrusted into UK care, they will have been treated with the utmost compassion & respect that the UK people consider normal & appropriate to the departed. May I wish my personal condolences to ALL families.
Especially to the family of the victim (& his patient wife) who shares a name with my brother, who has recently stayed at a hotel 2 doors along from that beach, what a spooky coinidence! - I have had to reassure several people (friends & family) that they were of the wrong assumption & that my brother was safely home in the UK and not involved, but still with the eirie feeling that someone sharing his name was a victim.
Last edited by unclenelli; 1st Jul 2015 at 18:35.
Unclenelli,
My experience is in the civilian AA system. My comment was referring to airway clearances not diplomatic which I suspect was expedited at government level. As you say in such an incident you treat the injured and sort the rest out later same as any mass civilian casualty situation.
As always the 99 Squadron the people at Brize and the Regiment showed the RAF at it's best.
Airpig & Uncle G
The Dips is not a problem (as AP would seem to already know) . These would have been dip'd under the standing no-notice authority by the DA/Amb level across France, Italy and Spain, Tunis would have been even higher!).
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)
The Dips is not a problem (as AP would seem to already know) . These would have been dip'd under the standing no-notice authority by the DA/Amb level across France, Italy and Spain, Tunis would have been even higher!).
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)
As always the 99 Squadron the people at Brize and the Regiment showed the RAF at it's best.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought the repatriation at BZN by the RAF looked dignified and correct in all respects.
Many,many people appreciate the efforts of the service people and other HMG involved, I for one.
Many,many people appreciate the efforts of the service people and other HMG involved, I for one.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Lancashire
Age: 48
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Timelines eh......the CIA created, armed, financed Al-Qaeda well before 9/11, UK sold chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. We were best pals til he stopped dancing to the yanky tune. Who has the oil contracts now? Follow the money.
There's 500,000 dead Iraqis since they were 'liberated' and given 'democracy', how many Afghans, Palestinians??
You're blinkered beyond belief, look at the bigger picture.
There's 500,000 dead Iraqis since they were 'liberated' and given 'democracy', how many Afghans, Palestinians??
You're blinkered beyond belief, look at the bigger picture.
Politics belong in Jet Blast.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In the Ether
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Dips is not a problem (as AP would seem to already know) . These would have been dip'd under the standing no-notice authority by the DA/Amb level across France, Italy and Spain, Tunis would have been even higher!).
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)
Brize's authority to issue ATFMX status was linked to HERRICK and no longer stands for these kinds of sorties. That is not to say that it can't be issued in conjunction with EuroControl, of course.
The flights both attract HOSP status, as you say, which can help immensely and effectively negates the need for the ATFMX status.
Yes, there are standing Dips for most Euro neighbours. I can, however, say with some certainty that the Tunis Dip was less than forthcoming, arriving with the crew only minutes before engine start - this is not unusual.
A sad week indeed - thoughts and prayers with those and theirs.
