Serving in HM Forces harms post mil career chances.
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Serving in HM Forces harms post mil career chances.
Offered without prejudice!
"Having served Queen and country is one of the least attractive attributes in a jobseeker in the eyes of potential employers, new research has found.
A study asked hiring managers to rank how positively they looked on a range of features in a job applicants, including time spent in the forces, qualifications and experiences.
Fewer than half of the 2,000 people questioned – just 47pc – said they saw applicants who had served in uniform as a positive attribute. Only being "well-travelled" or "sporty or active" appearing on a CV were ranked lower."
Why having served Queen and country can harm your career - Telegraph
"Having served Queen and country is one of the least attractive attributes in a jobseeker in the eyes of potential employers, new research has found.
A study asked hiring managers to rank how positively they looked on a range of features in a job applicants, including time spent in the forces, qualifications and experiences.
Fewer than half of the 2,000 people questioned – just 47pc – said they saw applicants who had served in uniform as a positive attribute. Only being "well-travelled" or "sporty or active" appearing on a CV were ranked lower."
Why having served Queen and country can harm your career - Telegraph
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
AlR, I know my over weight, untidy, unfit site manager had a thing about ex-forces even though one of his best workers was a retired CSM. It may have been because his boss was a retired Captain ex-tanker.
personal prejudice aside - I've seen no evidence of this in my (limited) job search post-RAF. In fact, exactly the opposite, especially in the offshore world (not my current employer but I know many employed there post-RAF).
Does this not speak more of the paucity of UK managerial expertise than of the quality of those that blind prejudice condemns? Together with the lack of knowledge of Service life in the general population, the great majority of whom have never served nor know of anyone else who has served, opinions are garnered from the media instead. Those who suffer from combat stress, unable to settle back into civilian life regularly feature in such coverage, thus all ex Forces are combat stress victims and unemployable!
Lazy, prejudiced and ignorant; I give you UK plc!
Lazy, prejudiced and ignorant; I give you UK plc!
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My experience is that many businessmen have a negative opinion of ex-serviceman and see them as either as a liability, or a threat.
I was lucky; I only ever applied for one job, the guy that interviewed me for my job had a brother who was an Army officer and as a result, knew the skill set that an ex-serviceman can bring to a business. 20 years later, I'm still there, moved up the chain, now run a national operation and in a position to hire and fire myself.
One word or warning; don't bluff at your interview, you may be sat across the table from an ex-serviceman who will know immediately if you try to big it up.
I was lucky; I only ever applied for one job, the guy that interviewed me for my job had a brother who was an Army officer and as a result, knew the skill set that an ex-serviceman can bring to a business. 20 years later, I'm still there, moved up the chain, now run a national operation and in a position to hire and fire myself.
One word or warning; don't bluff at your interview, you may be sat across the table from an ex-serviceman who will know immediately if you try to big it up.
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Just journalistic rubbish IMO.
Recruitment is a massive component of a successful companies strategy and all successful companies (big or small) will try hard to get this challenging element correct. Most of the time a successful and proven track record in the "soft" skill (eg sales) of "hard" skill (eg software coding) will VASTLY outweigh anything else on a CV. These day most recruiters automatically filter out all the chaff and spraff people love to put in a CV and go straight for the meat. Your background and history will only really count if it is evidence that you can deliver (ready out the box) the task the company is going to pay you to do.
And, IMO, that is exactly as it should be.
Recruitment is a massive component of a successful companies strategy and all successful companies (big or small) will try hard to get this challenging element correct. Most of the time a successful and proven track record in the "soft" skill (eg sales) of "hard" skill (eg software coding) will VASTLY outweigh anything else on a CV. These day most recruiters automatically filter out all the chaff and spraff people love to put in a CV and go straight for the meat. Your background and history will only really count if it is evidence that you can deliver (ready out the box) the task the company is going to pay you to do.
And, IMO, that is exactly as it should be.
Top talent is what a company wants in theory, but that isn't what happens at the job interview level. HR wants someone who won't complain and costs nothing, and the boss wants someone who won't threaten his job.
Ex-Servicemen are likely to challenge illegal or dangerous practices, and their leadership training and experience (rightly) makes an average to poor boss concerned for his/her own job.
Add in computerised keyword/profiling of CVs where many ex-servicemen get rejected for not having a 'standard' history, and the prospects for ex-Servicemen are not good.
Taking telecom companies as an example, are they full of top talent? Not at all; they are awful. Local Government, Banks too; the list is very long. To succeed, the company just has to be slightly less crap than the other companies. Their hires are nice, safe dull people whom they can work to death, and ex-Servicemen are not those.
In contrast, if one can get through the main man directly, and/or the job requires high levels of skill and dedication,then the ex-Serviceman has better than average prospects.
Ex-Servicemen are likely to challenge illegal or dangerous practices, and their leadership training and experience (rightly) makes an average to poor boss concerned for his/her own job.
Add in computerised keyword/profiling of CVs where many ex-servicemen get rejected for not having a 'standard' history, and the prospects for ex-Servicemen are not good.
Taking telecom companies as an example, are they full of top talent? Not at all; they are awful. Local Government, Banks too; the list is very long. To succeed, the company just has to be slightly less crap than the other companies. Their hires are nice, safe dull people whom they can work to death, and ex-Servicemen are not those.
In contrast, if one can get through the main man directly, and/or the job requires high levels of skill and dedication,then the ex-Serviceman has better than average prospects.
To people who have never been in, having a CV that includes military service = squaddie (because that's the only position there is in the armed forces) and to them, squaddie = unable to string two words together without shooting at someone.
As said above, it's ignorance, nothing else.
As said above, it's ignorance, nothing else.
I agree with both F3 and muppet. Ex military personnel are either considered unsuitable for many civilian jobs because they are considered to need direct orders all of the time & close supervision, and are inflexible. Or, they are considered to represent a threat because they are well organised, get the job done and good at recognising and solving problems. Bosses don't like either!
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My experience is similar to Sandy Parts. In foreign climes time served in the British forces is very highly regarded, and can make a big difference during a selection process.
Non-UK employers value the adherence to standards, the willingness to speak out about unsafe practices, and the self assurance that many ex-service personnel exhibit.
The characteristics that British bosses see as a threat are considered valuable assets in other countries.
TTFN
Non-UK employers value the adherence to standards, the willingness to speak out about unsafe practices, and the self assurance that many ex-service personnel exhibit.
The characteristics that British bosses see as a threat are considered valuable assets in other countries.
TTFN
In the 90s I was involved in resettlement and recruitment (remember "Opportunities" newspaper/magazine?) - one of the issues I covered in resettlement lectures as, in a time of recession, MOD was pushing "the best trained workforce in Britain" campaign ("Access to Excellence") was that the average employer/recruiter not only had no Service experience, neither did his/her parents or even grandparents. Public perception of the Armed Forces was "Dad's Army". "Get some in", "Ain't 'Alf Hot Mum" and "The Navy Lark"!
In 20 years it seems little has changed. On the other hand I know that some major management consultancy companies run "pool" systems to train ex Services people in consultancy skills, and find the product very good. Royal British Legion do fantastic "hearts and minds" stuff with employers, but since the majority of employment is with SMEs, I suspect that the resettlement system need to do more with prospective employers at this level rather than the FTSE "top 100".
In 20 years it seems little has changed. On the other hand I know that some major management consultancy companies run "pool" systems to train ex Services people in consultancy skills, and find the product very good. Royal British Legion do fantastic "hearts and minds" stuff with employers, but since the majority of employment is with SMEs, I suspect that the resettlement system need to do more with prospective employers at this level rather than the FTSE "top 100".
I left 4 years ago and earn almost double what I did in the military, so I would partially disagree with that statement. I would agree with those posting that it is more of an advantage when applying to foreign companies than those in the UK.
In the UK, many employers seem to cling to the belief that anyone leaving the military will be damn grateful for a job and happily work for the minimum wage. UK employers also have a habit of asking for the moon on a stick in a puzzling JD, then either backtracking or offering 20K. This is especially true of sub-contractors who seem to repeatedly underestimate the cost of labour when pricing a bid.
I also chuckle when I read some of the posts on Linkedin as within the UK 'leadership' seems to have fallen into the HR domain, and many 30 year old HR managers are keen to share their thoughts on leadership and inspiring people.
In the UK, many employers seem to cling to the belief that anyone leaving the military will be damn grateful for a job and happily work for the minimum wage. UK employers also have a habit of asking for the moon on a stick in a puzzling JD, then either backtracking or offering 20K. This is especially true of sub-contractors who seem to repeatedly underestimate the cost of labour when pricing a bid.
I also chuckle when I read some of the posts on Linkedin as within the UK 'leadership' seems to have fallen into the HR domain, and many 30 year old HR managers are keen to share their thoughts on leadership and inspiring people.
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I think it depends on where in the country you are and what sector your moving into! Some places will be easier than others...
In Aberdeen ex-military guys are looked upon well. Good work ethic, a can do attitude and good safety culture go far in Oil and Gas.
I work for a big US Oil and Gas Service company in Aberdeen aong with 3 other ex-RAF and a few ex-Navy and Army guys so the banter is always good. The management know they can just set a task and it will done, they know we have management skills and unlike most 'civvys' have done management training during our careers and generally won't try to hide things from them.
I did take a hit on wages when i joined but i was basically starting a new career and understood that, it took less than a year for me to be on more than i was when i left the RAF as the management realised what i was capable of. When i joined i was 1 rung up the ladder, now i'm in my own little job bracket given projects to deal with and teams of people to manage with little to no managerial interference.
I've had the recruiters and managers call me to ask about people who've applied for jobs as i might have known them from the RAF (and in one case they guy had sat on the desk next to me at Kinloss).
In Aberdeen ex-military guys are looked upon well. Good work ethic, a can do attitude and good safety culture go far in Oil and Gas.
I work for a big US Oil and Gas Service company in Aberdeen aong with 3 other ex-RAF and a few ex-Navy and Army guys so the banter is always good. The management know they can just set a task and it will done, they know we have management skills and unlike most 'civvys' have done management training during our careers and generally won't try to hide things from them.
I did take a hit on wages when i joined but i was basically starting a new career and understood that, it took less than a year for me to be on more than i was when i left the RAF as the management realised what i was capable of. When i joined i was 1 rung up the ladder, now i'm in my own little job bracket given projects to deal with and teams of people to manage with little to no managerial interference.
I've had the recruiters and managers call me to ask about people who've applied for jobs as i might have known them from the RAF (and in one case they guy had sat on the desk next to me at Kinloss).
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Having worked in civil aviation for longer than I was in the RAF I've certainly never encountered any discrimination against military personnel. But on the other hand if a candidate were to give the impression of feeling entitled to a particular position on account of having "done his time" that would most definitely count against them.
"Ex-Servicemen are likely to challenge illegal or dangerous practices"
As a slight interloper here I was taught to fly by a VGS at a very young age and I recognized the above a few times in a job. The 'safety culture' was very much if you see something you don't like open your mouth and say so - it was a genuinely open within reason environment.
My first boss at said company was so good that this was never an issue. Cue his replacement and being told to 'shut your (my) F**cking mouth and mind your own business' after respectfully pointing out a very dangerous practice.
We never saw eye to eye and once nearly came to blows but was proved right after I'd left when a lad lost a few toes under an FLT wheel. But it was about the 4-5th time this had nearly happened.
Lesson learned.
As a slight interloper here I was taught to fly by a VGS at a very young age and I recognized the above a few times in a job. The 'safety culture' was very much if you see something you don't like open your mouth and say so - it was a genuinely open within reason environment.
My first boss at said company was so good that this was never an issue. Cue his replacement and being told to 'shut your (my) F**cking mouth and mind your own business' after respectfully pointing out a very dangerous practice.
We never saw eye to eye and once nearly came to blows but was proved right after I'd left when a lad lost a few toes under an FLT wheel. But it was about the 4-5th time this had nearly happened.
Lesson learned.
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I was 'fortunate', if that's what you call sending out lots of resumes and putting my details out there on job sites etc to have been headhunted by a company after I left the RAF.
They specifically targetted an ex mil type as they knew the value of such individuals. Since that first role I've enjoyed 3 others, two with the same company (effectively a promotion) and who I am currently with. Again they specifically targeted ex mil types. Its also interesting to note all these companies were in Canada and while they were looking for a 'local' ex mil, they had a high level of respect for the UK. Within these roles I've also been in the position to hire and fire people and will say the view of the general public towards their military is far higher than in the UK, generally very respectful. Look out for the youtube video of the Canadian soldier killed in Afghanistan and his repatriation home - it puts the UK public to shame when you see how the Canadians react to this persons final journey from landing back home in Canada to his eventual journeys end.
I think as one earlier post put it, the UK is so fixated and controlled by the media and the negative aspects it seems to thrive on that its no surprise the image of the military may very well be of a 'squaddie' who can only sit in the corner trying to bite his own ears due to combat stress. Then again, I have never gone to one of the great unwashed and uneducated and asked them for a job, as they seem to peak at 'yu wont frys wiv thah'
It really does depend on the industry you move to. If its one that has no association or links to some aspect of military life such as aviation, why are people shocked that they could end up with a boss who may be shallow, self absorbed, insecure and ineffective with no understanding of military life, training or the value on offer -ergo he's threatened by such types. Then again have we not all known or had a boss like that at some time in the military.
End of the day if you don't like your boss or your job or are finding it hard to get a job - do something about it, but for goodness sake don't whine or complain, there are enough people out there willing to do that already.
They specifically targetted an ex mil type as they knew the value of such individuals. Since that first role I've enjoyed 3 others, two with the same company (effectively a promotion) and who I am currently with. Again they specifically targeted ex mil types. Its also interesting to note all these companies were in Canada and while they were looking for a 'local' ex mil, they had a high level of respect for the UK. Within these roles I've also been in the position to hire and fire people and will say the view of the general public towards their military is far higher than in the UK, generally very respectful. Look out for the youtube video of the Canadian soldier killed in Afghanistan and his repatriation home - it puts the UK public to shame when you see how the Canadians react to this persons final journey from landing back home in Canada to his eventual journeys end.
I think as one earlier post put it, the UK is so fixated and controlled by the media and the negative aspects it seems to thrive on that its no surprise the image of the military may very well be of a 'squaddie' who can only sit in the corner trying to bite his own ears due to combat stress. Then again, I have never gone to one of the great unwashed and uneducated and asked them for a job, as they seem to peak at 'yu wont frys wiv thah'
It really does depend on the industry you move to. If its one that has no association or links to some aspect of military life such as aviation, why are people shocked that they could end up with a boss who may be shallow, self absorbed, insecure and ineffective with no understanding of military life, training or the value on offer -ergo he's threatened by such types. Then again have we not all known or had a boss like that at some time in the military.
End of the day if you don't like your boss or your job or are finding it hard to get a job - do something about it, but for goodness sake don't whine or complain, there are enough people out there willing to do that already.
I found it very much the same as in the military, right place, right time, face fits. The important thing I found in interviews is to show you've moved on and you're looking for a new challenge. Paper quals count for something but experience and personal qualities count for more- in other words, will you fit in?
The main problem is that many civvy firms want someone to be productive effectively from day one, they don't want to spend money on training. It can be difficult to translate mil experience to civvy experience which is why taking a short term temporary job can help bridge that gap.
I can't say I've encountered much bias since leaving, a lot depends on how you carry yourself and how you deal with people. Also I don't think the press and charities help by always highlighting the problems, virtually everything you see is negative.
Finally, one tip for interviews- be very careful about Reserve Service, it can be suicide to mention you're thinking of joining the Reserves at interview, despite all the good words lots of companies see them as a burden and financial risk. If you're already in then it's up to them, if you're thinking of joining wait till you've got the job then see how the land lies.
The main problem is that many civvy firms want someone to be productive effectively from day one, they don't want to spend money on training. It can be difficult to translate mil experience to civvy experience which is why taking a short term temporary job can help bridge that gap.
I can't say I've encountered much bias since leaving, a lot depends on how you carry yourself and how you deal with people. Also I don't think the press and charities help by always highlighting the problems, virtually everything you see is negative.
Finally, one tip for interviews- be very careful about Reserve Service, it can be suicide to mention you're thinking of joining the Reserves at interview, despite all the good words lots of companies see them as a burden and financial risk. If you're already in then it's up to them, if you're thinking of joining wait till you've got the job then see how the land lies.