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Skeleton, I didn't make the 4 ranks bit but;
We flew an OP sortie and were then slated to deploy to St Mawgan to continue the OP. Mrs PN was just about to pop PN 2.
Difficult choice.
BV is right [quote]These days it is entirely possible to have a much more stable career than your predecessors enjoyed. Just look at the aircraft types and you will realise that they are mostly confined to one base nowadays.[/]
Crew were brilliant. Short story, we flew the OP, did the debrief, crew did a hot QTR after the 9 hr sortie and I got home in time. We are still married.
You need to sit down and have a serious in depth discussion with Mrs and decide your options.
PS
BV is right [quote]These days it is entirely possible to have a much more stable career than your predecessors enjoyed. Just look at the aircraft types and you will realise that they are mostly confined to one base nowadays.[/]
It was certainly true that some, even at the height of the cold war, spent almost the whole of their time on one type at one base on an 8-5 Monday to Friday basis but that could be deadly boring.
We flew an OP sortie and were then slated to deploy to St Mawgan to continue the OP. Mrs PN was just about to pop PN 2.
Difficult choice.
BV is right [quote]These days it is entirely possible to have a much more stable career than your predecessors enjoyed. Just look at the aircraft types and you will realise that they are mostly confined to one base nowadays.[/]
Crew were brilliant. Short story, we flew the OP, did the debrief, crew did a hot QTR after the 9 hr sortie and I got home in time. We are still married.
You need to sit down and have a serious in depth discussion with Mrs and decide your options.
PS
BV is right [quote]These days it is entirely possible to have a much more stable career than your predecessors enjoyed. Just look at the aircraft types and you will realise that they are mostly confined to one base nowadays.[/]
It was certainly true that some, even at the height of the cold war, spent almost the whole of their time on one type at one base on an 8-5 Monday to Friday basis but that could be deadly boring.
Given that 2 of the top 3 reasons why people leave the Forces are 'Impact of Service Life on family and personal life' (61%) and 'Spouse's/Partner's career' (43%) - I'd suggest the toughen up or leave posts will likely make people leave.
Like it, lump it, tell stories of the 70s and 80s, but it's why people are leaving.
Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...de-survey-2015
Like it, lump it, tell stories of the 70s and 80s, but it's why people are leaving.
Source - https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...de-survey-2015
It's been said already, and probably better than I could put it, but you need to be prepared for a life of instability regardless of the intent behind NEM to provide more stability.
The RAF is shrinking but our commitments remain as high as ever. What does that mean? Options for posting are becoming increasingly limited which on the plus side means you stand a fighting chance if being able to put down roots in a specific part of the country with a reasonable degree of certainty that you probably won't find yourself suddenly posted to the other end of the country. That's as close to domestic stability as you're likely to get these days.
The flip side to this shrinking force is that those that remain are spending more time either deployed on ops, on exercise - either exercising or 'flying the flag' for UK plc or in support of our allies or in training in preparation for all the above. Under the UN concept of 'responsibility to protect' combined with what in essence is a fairly liberal government means that we are often getting involved in places around the world that won't appear to be immediately obvious - how many people thought they'd ever be going to Nigeria or doing air policing over the Baltic as Russia flexes it's muscles on the other side of the border? That isn't going to change any time soon and you will be spending a lot of time away from home, sometimes in completely unexpected places that need you to dig out the atlas just to find out where they are. And often it's all at short notice - 3 days notice for a Balkans det, 5 days notice to go to Baghdad as a LO attached to the US Army in 2003 and 10 days notice to go to Helmand in 2006. You quickly become used to hearing the loaded questions "you haven't made plans for summer/Christmas have you or you do have insurance for that holiday?"
That's pretty much just the basics of life for anybody on the 'ops' side of the RAF these days, so your ground crew, ops and support staff will all be in the same boat and you as an officer will be expected to set the example to those more junior types who may also be struggling with the demands of operational life.
As you proceed up the ranks, time away on ops will decrease as your seniority increases and those coming in behind you take your place on the front line. However, it doesn't get any easier just because you aren't deployed to some random part of the world and you will more than likely find yourself working the same sort of long hours in a HQ somewhere, whether that be PJHQ, Air Comd, 1/2 Gp or even Army HQ or MOD. Even with NEM hinting at the prospect of stability there are plenty of other factors that work to undermine that concept. It's not going to be a smooth life by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly not compared to your average civilian career, but it's one hell of a ride. And like it or not your significant other will be a part of that whether you intend it or whether she wants it.
I'm not going to say get rid - that was the helpful advice we got on day 1 of IOT - "women are trouble and a distraction you don't need in training" - only you can make that call. The right woman by your side can be an invaluable anchor to reality and a source of support and a shoulder to cry on the days when it all goes wrong. The wrong woman by your side will invariably be the cause of the tears.
The RAF is shrinking but our commitments remain as high as ever. What does that mean? Options for posting are becoming increasingly limited which on the plus side means you stand a fighting chance if being able to put down roots in a specific part of the country with a reasonable degree of certainty that you probably won't find yourself suddenly posted to the other end of the country. That's as close to domestic stability as you're likely to get these days.
The flip side to this shrinking force is that those that remain are spending more time either deployed on ops, on exercise - either exercising or 'flying the flag' for UK plc or in support of our allies or in training in preparation for all the above. Under the UN concept of 'responsibility to protect' combined with what in essence is a fairly liberal government means that we are often getting involved in places around the world that won't appear to be immediately obvious - how many people thought they'd ever be going to Nigeria or doing air policing over the Baltic as Russia flexes it's muscles on the other side of the border? That isn't going to change any time soon and you will be spending a lot of time away from home, sometimes in completely unexpected places that need you to dig out the atlas just to find out where they are. And often it's all at short notice - 3 days notice for a Balkans det, 5 days notice to go to Baghdad as a LO attached to the US Army in 2003 and 10 days notice to go to Helmand in 2006. You quickly become used to hearing the loaded questions "you haven't made plans for summer/Christmas have you or you do have insurance for that holiday?"
That's pretty much just the basics of life for anybody on the 'ops' side of the RAF these days, so your ground crew, ops and support staff will all be in the same boat and you as an officer will be expected to set the example to those more junior types who may also be struggling with the demands of operational life.
As you proceed up the ranks, time away on ops will decrease as your seniority increases and those coming in behind you take your place on the front line. However, it doesn't get any easier just because you aren't deployed to some random part of the world and you will more than likely find yourself working the same sort of long hours in a HQ somewhere, whether that be PJHQ, Air Comd, 1/2 Gp or even Army HQ or MOD. Even with NEM hinting at the prospect of stability there are plenty of other factors that work to undermine that concept. It's not going to be a smooth life by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly not compared to your average civilian career, but it's one hell of a ride. And like it or not your significant other will be a part of that whether you intend it or whether she wants it.
I'm not going to say get rid - that was the helpful advice we got on day 1 of IOT - "women are trouble and a distraction you don't need in training" - only you can make that call. The right woman by your side can be an invaluable anchor to reality and a source of support and a shoulder to cry on the days when it all goes wrong. The wrong woman by your side will invariably be the cause of the tears.
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Sorry for the re-attack, but on reflection I decided to bring up another elephant in the room on top of all the good advice above. There is an undeniable fact that a guy on a front line squadron who has a, how shall we say, demanding, wife becomes a supervisory problem of some sort.
Either 1. he puts up with all the moaning at home and does his bit at work, but is lacking in support at home and starts to crumble internally under the stress of it all. Or 2, he caves in to the moaning, even just a little bit, and becomes one of those guys that always has a reason that he cannot do things and, subconsciously or otherwise, tries to arrange his work life for the minimum home disruption. This just creates more work and burden for his colleagues and breeds resentment in the section.
Either way, you don't want to be that person.
None of us are really saying that you need to ditch her, but its also only fair to her that you fully explain what is likely to happen so she can make her own choice. It is much better to have had this conversation before and reasoned it out, than say 1930 on a saturday night pre-show in the west end, when you get a phone call to say your leave's been cancelled and you need to be in the squadron at 0800 the next morning ready to deploy. Believe me, to the unwarned, and even to the fully warned, that scenario rarely goes down well....
(Courtney, sorry for the F3 banter, too easy. But anyway it was merely presented as a spectrum analysis vs. the ridiculous deployment tempo of the Puma force-of which I have nothing to do with BTW. Don't be so precious. We all work hard I'm sure)
Either 1. he puts up with all the moaning at home and does his bit at work, but is lacking in support at home and starts to crumble internally under the stress of it all. Or 2, he caves in to the moaning, even just a little bit, and becomes one of those guys that always has a reason that he cannot do things and, subconsciously or otherwise, tries to arrange his work life for the minimum home disruption. This just creates more work and burden for his colleagues and breeds resentment in the section.
Either way, you don't want to be that person.
None of us are really saying that you need to ditch her, but its also only fair to her that you fully explain what is likely to happen so she can make her own choice. It is much better to have had this conversation before and reasoned it out, than say 1930 on a saturday night pre-show in the west end, when you get a phone call to say your leave's been cancelled and you need to be in the squadron at 0800 the next morning ready to deploy. Believe me, to the unwarned, and even to the fully warned, that scenario rarely goes down well....
(Courtney, sorry for the F3 banter, too easy. But anyway it was merely presented as a spectrum analysis vs. the ridiculous deployment tempo of the Puma force-of which I have nothing to do with BTW. Don't be so precious. We all work hard I'm sure)
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I was once told by a SNCO (ground branch with a brevet) that he couldn't fly on his sortie tomorrow because his wife (a nurse) had just been put onto an extra night shift and he had to stay at home to look after the kids.........
One way interview soon followed - he didn't last very long.
One way interview soon followed - he didn't last very long.
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WD, and therein lies the rub. You cannot leave the children alone, you can't always get a baby sitter at short notice, and one's OH's job is arguably more important as an intensive care nurse than your's as a crewman on 'just another' exercise.
Military Service and OH' s job or career are often mutually incompatible.
More than once our children had to be dumped on a willing neighbour even for mundane things like a practice Royal lunch; we didn't actually get to the real lunch.
Military Service and OH' s job or career are often mutually incompatible.
More than once our children had to be dumped on a willing neighbour even for mundane things like a practice Royal lunch; we didn't actually get to the real lunch.
"I was once told by a SNCO (ground branch with a brevet) that he couldn't fly on his sortie tomorrow because his wife (a nurse) had just been put onto an extra night shift and he had to stay at home to look after the kids........."
Sorry, but what does the RAF expect?
SNCO in another "wife has job and also gets buggered around" shocker.
The thing is, with a large number of breveted SNCOs getting made redundant, pay freeze and paltry pay rises, pension being messed around with, on top of lots of ops, and the "flexibility" required being called in more and more, perhaps people are getting a bit fed up with their wives being second fiddle to what is at the end of the day just a job. Who is it to say that his job is more important than hers?!?!
The days of it being a way of livfe are gone now I'm afraid, and if the powers that be don't understand this, then all the experienced married guys will leave. Or they'll end up being the unfortunate divorced 30-something's living In the mess.
To the original poster: you have been given an opportunity most would give their left testicle for. Grab it man! Have an honest chat with her. If she's your wife, you need her support or it won't work. You need to give your pilot training 110% or you won't make it buddy. You can achieve your dreams with or without her. I guess it's up to you to decide which one of the two it'll be. Trust me, it's invaluable having a supportive wife. I'm lucky to have one. She has no career (partly due to my job), and understands.
If however, your missus is a girlfriend, rather than wife, I'd suggest that if she ain't happy, then ditch her! Sounds harsh, but you don't want to be looking up at the skies in 10 years time, wishing you were flying!
Sorry, but what does the RAF expect?
SNCO in another "wife has job and also gets buggered around" shocker.
The thing is, with a large number of breveted SNCOs getting made redundant, pay freeze and paltry pay rises, pension being messed around with, on top of lots of ops, and the "flexibility" required being called in more and more, perhaps people are getting a bit fed up with their wives being second fiddle to what is at the end of the day just a job. Who is it to say that his job is more important than hers?!?!
The days of it being a way of livfe are gone now I'm afraid, and if the powers that be don't understand this, then all the experienced married guys will leave. Or they'll end up being the unfortunate divorced 30-something's living In the mess.
To the original poster: you have been given an opportunity most would give their left testicle for. Grab it man! Have an honest chat with her. If she's your wife, you need her support or it won't work. You need to give your pilot training 110% or you won't make it buddy. You can achieve your dreams with or without her. I guess it's up to you to decide which one of the two it'll be. Trust me, it's invaluable having a supportive wife. I'm lucky to have one. She has no career (partly due to my job), and understands.
If however, your missus is a girlfriend, rather than wife, I'd suggest that if she ain't happy, then ditch her! Sounds harsh, but you don't want to be looking up at the skies in 10 years time, wishing you were flying!
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I wasn't aircrew, but there are many similarities to the situations that many servicemen find themselves in; it's also relevant to mention that the OP may find himself in a command position, where the boot is on another foot and he may find his flying programme about to be impacted by someone's real-life. I had a Sgt, who's wife was absolutely fine with him going away, but he would fall to bits and would turn from an excellent tradesman, into a significant liability the moment we drove out of the camp gates (he also didn't last long).
In my case, SWMBO Mk1 couldn't hack it and our marriage crashed and burned after 7 years. SWMBO Mk2 was very supportive and our close-family stepped in when I was sent off at a moments notice.
To the OP - It needs a lot of thought and both parties need to really consider the implications of what is being taken on; best of luck for the future.
In my case, SWMBO Mk1 couldn't hack it and our marriage crashed and burned after 7 years. SWMBO Mk2 was very supportive and our close-family stepped in when I was sent off at a moments notice.
To the OP - It needs a lot of thought and both parties need to really consider the implications of what is being taken on; best of luck for the future.
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IF, this isn't a wind up perhaps the OP would be kind enough to come back to us on what he thinks about the considerable, esteemed and almost all sensible advice offered. Or send us an address for invoices for consultancy services!
I am ex RN and not aircrew, but have known a lot over the years - some of you are quite pleasant 
so please excuse a different perspective.
1. However much you explain to your significant other in advance about what it is going to be like, they don't understand it until the day it becomes a problem to them. Then it becomes a problem to you.
2. This is especially an issue if they are a professional & don't have a relocatable career. Nurse is better than brain surgeon; primary school teacher is better than university lecturer; part-time anything or nothing or parent is ideal. It is not a value judgement, just a reflection of the realities of the job market.
3. BUT if you decide to leave the services and stay with the girl then you could end up dealing with exactly the same issues outside. I once moved 7 times in 7 years (countries that is), all in civilian life, and in my case parting company with my wife en route due in part to dual career professional stress. Wrecking a marriage and two careers is not ideal, perhaps better to make better girlfriend selections early on, if you are likely to be in a mobile career. In this respect the UK armed forces' posting options are generally better matches for spouses than some civilian options.
Good luck, pp
so please excuse a different perspective.1. However much you explain to your significant other in advance about what it is going to be like, they don't understand it until the day it becomes a problem to them. Then it becomes a problem to you.
2. This is especially an issue if they are a professional & don't have a relocatable career. Nurse is better than brain surgeon; primary school teacher is better than university lecturer; part-time anything or nothing or parent is ideal. It is not a value judgement, just a reflection of the realities of the job market.
3. BUT if you decide to leave the services and stay with the girl then you could end up dealing with exactly the same issues outside. I once moved 7 times in 7 years (countries that is), all in civilian life, and in my case parting company with my wife en route due in part to dual career professional stress. Wrecking a marriage and two careers is not ideal, perhaps better to make better girlfriend selections early on, if you are likely to be in a mobile career. In this respect the UK armed forces' posting options are generally better matches for spouses than some civilian options.
Good luck, pp
Wensleydale,
I am hoping this chap had a history of avoiding flying without what you deemed to be a suitable reason. If this was a one off and it was me you can rest assured your caring leadership would have been been noted and following my silence at the one way interview raised a rank or two shortly after.
Yes I have experienced a similar situation and yes the ranks above helped me, but I did not make a habit of it and I made an enemy for the rest of that tour.
One way interview soon followed - he didn't last long
Yes I have experienced a similar situation and yes the ranks above helped me, but I did not make a habit of it and I made an enemy for the rest of that tour.
Married 3 weeks (to current SWMBO), 6pm, pan on stove and air raid siren outside MQ in Norwich sounds. Rush upstairs, into "greens", grab car keys (base is 13 miles away and I am Ground Defence Cdr so authorised not to wait for bus but scare locals going through Wroxham). As I grab car keys, new bride say caustically - "Where the hell are you going?" "Call out", I say "What that.........?", but I have gone
Four hours later after Aunty Joan has run out of things to do went home - to "And where the hell have you been?" - and before we were married she had seen me called out at the Towers (not often mind you). I think the siren spooked her. But as someone said above, it is not until you have had the experience..............
Four hours later after Aunty Joan has run out of things to do went home - to "And where the hell have you been?" - and before we were married she had seen me called out at the Towers (not often mind you). I think the siren spooked her. But as someone said above, it is not until you have had the experience..............
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Skeleton - yes he was known for it. It was not a compulsory call in for his other half but the opportunity to work an extra shift at time and a half! As for making enemies...if he called off at short notice then someone else had to be called in for extra work to cover for him (at a time when we were flying for upwards of 700 hours per year). Try explaining to TACON that they cannot have an AWACS for their Op/Exer because one of the crew has to babysit....
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There are literally thousands of young people in the country who would have loved nothing more than to tear in to that envelope one morning to find the letter inviting them on to the IOT course to become a pilot, but it never happened.
Until recently, I would have agreed wholeheartedly with the statement below:
However, playing devils advocate, that was before the military/treasury decided to adopt very civilian working practices and turn the armed forces from a vocation/career into a job.
My question is whether the attitude expressed above, are still valid against the backdrop of NEM, redundancies, pay restraint and the 'train to Glasgow'?
Yup, with a wife like that now, you have to make a choice...wife or the RAF. She needs to be 100% on your side and prepared to be on her own for long periods.
My question is whether the attitude expressed above, are still valid against the backdrop of NEM, redundancies, pay restraint and the 'train to Glasgow'?
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I was once told by a SNCO (ground branch with a brevet)
Rearcrew would be more accurate eg Fighter Controller, ABM etc and as for "brevet".....
