Civilian Instructors for the RAF
Although providing a different level of training to AFTS and BFTS, ETPS has over 50% civilian instructors. All are ex-military test pilots and many were ETPS tutors when still serving. The students learn from everyone's backgrounds and, frankly, it matters nothing whether an instructor on a given exercise is civilian or military. However, there is one fundamental difference with respect to the BFTS/AFTS proposal - living in south Wiltshire vs living on Anglesey!
Last edited by LOMCEVAK; 14th Jun 2015 at 10:59.
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'Above the clouds', thanks for that. In my Navy days the only streaming was for fighters, AEW, and helicopters. Instructors were picked after they done a tour or two.
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Can't help feeling that many of these sentiments are founded on a rose-tinted memory of how things were. When I was at BFTS many (most ?) instructors had not flown anything that wasn't red and white for at least as many years as the civilian instructors who are currently being dismissively referred to here.
Originally Posted by ShotOne
Can't help feeling that many of these sentiments are founded on a rose-tinted memory of how things were.
And they all seem so knowledgeable about todays RAF and the issues we face and how wrong we're getting things. I just blindly assumed that they were better informed.
In the late '70s, certainly there weren't many dyed-in-the-wool red-and-white QFIs at RAFC. Experience ranged from V-force to Lightnings, Sunderlands to Belvederes, Hunters to Canberras, Britannias to Beverleys - and pretty well everything else.
But as time went by, I expect that many QFIs' 'former types' were no longer in service and it's thus hardly surprising that some preferred to stay on JPs rather than go back to an OCU and onto a new type - if indeed they were given the chance. Rather a pity; when I was instructing at a UAS in the early '90s most of us wanted to escape Learning Command as soon as we could, although others preferred the airlines.
But as time went by, I expect that many QFIs' 'former types' were no longer in service and it's thus hardly surprising that some preferred to stay on JPs rather than go back to an OCU and onto a new type - if indeed they were given the chance. Rather a pity; when I was instructing at a UAS in the early '90s most of us wanted to escape Learning Command as soon as we could, although others preferred the airlines.
Last edited by BEagle; 15th Jun 2015 at 06:39.
But there have been civilian QFIs in the system for years, the last big input was in 1997ish when ex Mil pilots were recruited and know as Aviation Officers, wearing uniform but employed by the Civil Service. These guys were generally very experienced pilots and QFIs who gave a very good service. Some changed to become FTRS which caught them out when their 4 year contracts were not renewed.
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Ignorance is bliss!
4Greens, wake up man!
Where have you been the past 20 years?
Almost all uk military direct entry pilots from all three services started their flight training with at least some civilian QFIs from 1995 to 2003. (Huntings and Babcock).
The Joint Elementary Flying Training School
Indeed most RN and AAC and RAF Multi engine pilots have continued to do so to the present day. Babcock pilots carry out Army and Navy grading as well as EFT and RAF MELIN.
The "pure" civi QFIs face more annual check rides than their military colleagues as they face the same Military tests as well as CAA ones. Their ranks include Flt Cmdrs with considerable aerobatic and formation flying backgrounds, and the highest number of A2s in the system. Some have been teaching Military students since the mid 1990s.
Under Ascent, top notch civis teach Navy observers.
At Shawbury there are many ex mil QHIs.
Provided there is a military ethos to the schools, the mix of backgrounds is a genuine asset to be valued not scorned.
Where have you been the past 20 years?
Almost all uk military direct entry pilots from all three services started their flight training with at least some civilian QFIs from 1995 to 2003. (Huntings and Babcock).
The Joint Elementary Flying Training School
Indeed most RN and AAC and RAF Multi engine pilots have continued to do so to the present day. Babcock pilots carry out Army and Navy grading as well as EFT and RAF MELIN.
The "pure" civi QFIs face more annual check rides than their military colleagues as they face the same Military tests as well as CAA ones. Their ranks include Flt Cmdrs with considerable aerobatic and formation flying backgrounds, and the highest number of A2s in the system. Some have been teaching Military students since the mid 1990s.
Under Ascent, top notch civis teach Navy observers.
At Shawbury there are many ex mil QHIs.
Provided there is a military ethos to the schools, the mix of backgrounds is a genuine asset to be valued not scorned.
Almost all uk military direct entry pilots from all three services started their flight training with at least some civilian QFIs from 1995 to 2003. (Huntings and Babcock).
Indeed most RAF Multi engine pilots have continued to do so to the present day. Babcock pilots carry out EFT and RAF MELIN.
The "pure" civi QFIs ......... have been teaching Military students since the mid 1990s.
Under Ascent, top notch civis teach Navy observers.
At Shawbury there are many ex mil QHIs.
Provided there is a military ethos to the schools, the mix of backgrounds is a genuine asset to be valued not scorned.
Civvie QFIs teaching military students since the 90s is, as others have pointed out, not necessarily a good thing. Where is the recent frontline experience? Where is the military ethos in that?
Top notch civvies at Culdrose, aren't they pretty much all Ex-Mil? Nothing wrong with civvie EX-MIL, but it is the ex-mil bit that is hugely important. Just as it is at Shawbs.
Problem is, for Ascent, and soon the military, the pool of ex-mil instructors is starting to dry up. It will eventually wither, and no-one predicted that, well the SO1s and SO2s involved in the farce of MFTS did but the senior hierarchy weren't listening!! Valley is a case in point.
Now they want to move BFT to Valley!! Good luck with recruiting qualified ex-mil for that! Which means more postings of regular manpower to bail out a contractor that promised everything but failed to deliver - again!!
Merely for accuracy sake, 16(R), 57(R) & 85(R) were not formed under those numbers until much later than '06. When EFT shifted from the UAS's to dedicated sqns in '06, they were named 1 Sqn 1 EFTS, 2 Sqn 1 EFTS & 3 Sqn, 1 EFTS.
I don't know which year they changed to full sqn numbers as I wasn't there then but I was when they moved from UAS to EFT in 06.
I don't know which year they changed to full sqn numbers as I wasn't there then but I was when they moved from UAS to EFT in 06.
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Historical Accuracy?
RP, not sure what your point is regarding GEJ's comments - he is accurate. RAF pilots were trained by civilians under JEFTS for some 10 years up till around 2003 and continued to be trained under MELIN (and from 2013 alongside 16Sqn) for 45(R) Sqn entry into the Multi Engined world to this day.
RN and AAC pilots have stayed with the system started in 1995 under JEFTS, through DEFTS (post RAF pullout from T67 at Chruch Fenton) and by 2009/2010 over to the G115e with very experienced civi and military QFIs under 3 FTS.
Historically:
From RAF Hendon records:
Inter-War flying training | Historical Periods | Taking flight | Exhibitions & Displays | Research | RAF Museum
"1914: RFC: With the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, it was clear that the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) would have to expand if it were to serve the Army in France and replace its own casualties. The Central Flying School (CFS) did not have the capacity to support this growth, so new training units were opened and civilian flying schools commandeered. "
"1936: The RAF Volunteer Reserve (RAFVR) was formed. The RAFVR provided a reservoir of trained aircrew to support the regular and reserve squadrons. Pupil pilots learnt to fly at weekends at civilian-run flying schools and attended classes in the evenings for their ground based tuition.
To cope with the influx of personnel, from the mid 1930s onwards, all student pilots, except Cranwell cadets, received two months' elementary training at civil schools. The FTS course was also cut from nine months to six to increase the output of pilots. During this period the Schools were supplied with fast new monoplane aircraft, such as the Miles Magister and Link Trainers were introduced to help teach instrument flying.
By 1939, RAF flying training was better than ever before, but shortages of instructors, airfields and training aircraft meant too few pilots were being produced. Nevertheless, the training structure was almost in place to support the expansion of the RAF into the mass 'citizens' air force' needed to fight the coming war. "
As for the quality of these QFIs (many of whom have spent 20 years teaching military pilots) perhaps we should let CFS do the talking rather than making unquantifiable judgements:
News Letter
RN and AAC pilots have stayed with the system started in 1995 under JEFTS, through DEFTS (post RAF pullout from T67 at Chruch Fenton) and by 2009/2010 over to the G115e with very experienced civi and military QFIs under 3 FTS.
Historically:
From RAF Hendon records:
Inter-War flying training | Historical Periods | Taking flight | Exhibitions & Displays | Research | RAF Museum
"1914: RFC: With the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, it was clear that the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) would have to expand if it were to serve the Army in France and replace its own casualties. The Central Flying School (CFS) did not have the capacity to support this growth, so new training units were opened and civilian flying schools commandeered. "
"1936: The RAF Volunteer Reserve (RAFVR) was formed. The RAFVR provided a reservoir of trained aircrew to support the regular and reserve squadrons. Pupil pilots learnt to fly at weekends at civilian-run flying schools and attended classes in the evenings for their ground based tuition.
To cope with the influx of personnel, from the mid 1930s onwards, all student pilots, except Cranwell cadets, received two months' elementary training at civil schools. The FTS course was also cut from nine months to six to increase the output of pilots. During this period the Schools were supplied with fast new monoplane aircraft, such as the Miles Magister and Link Trainers were introduced to help teach instrument flying.
By 1939, RAF flying training was better than ever before, but shortages of instructors, airfields and training aircraft meant too few pilots were being produced. Nevertheless, the training structure was almost in place to support the expansion of the RAF into the mass 'citizens' air force' needed to fight the coming war. "
As for the quality of these QFIs (many of whom have spent 20 years teaching military pilots) perhaps we should let CFS do the talking rather than making unquantifiable judgements:
News Letter
