What was the Tornado GR1's flight handling like?
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What was the Tornado GR1's flight handling like?
Hi all,
I'm an ex-Royal Navy baby observer who medically retired during OFT due to airsickness before gaining a CPL/IR a few years ago. Sadly 6 months after qualifying, I was diagnosed with an incurable brain tumour, so I moved into the world of flight simulation.
I'm currently doing some research for a flight simulator project and whilst the numerical performance figures for the GR1 Tornado can be obtained from sites such as this Flight Manual Pilot Notes & Aircraft Handbook on CD and Internet Download (Italian manuals), it's much harder to find any information about what it's handling was like from a pilot's perspective.
I would suggest it is impossible to derive handling character from a collection of tables.
As such, would be hugely grateful for any Tornado pilots/ex-pilots who would be willing to describe what it was like to fly them and in particular the control responses, control harmony and potential gotcha's.
Over the years, magazines have had accounts from pilots of Jaguars or Harriers about aircraft handling when taking journalists airborne, but sadly I can't find anything about the Tonka
Thanks for your consideration and help,
Rich
I'm an ex-Royal Navy baby observer who medically retired during OFT due to airsickness before gaining a CPL/IR a few years ago. Sadly 6 months after qualifying, I was diagnosed with an incurable brain tumour, so I moved into the world of flight simulation.
I'm currently doing some research for a flight simulator project and whilst the numerical performance figures for the GR1 Tornado can be obtained from sites such as this Flight Manual Pilot Notes & Aircraft Handbook on CD and Internet Download (Italian manuals), it's much harder to find any information about what it's handling was like from a pilot's perspective.
I would suggest it is impossible to derive handling character from a collection of tables.
As such, would be hugely grateful for any Tornado pilots/ex-pilots who would be willing to describe what it was like to fly them and in particular the control responses, control harmony and potential gotcha's.
Over the years, magazines have had accounts from pilots of Jaguars or Harriers about aircraft handling when taking journalists airborne, but sadly I can't find anything about the Tonka
Thanks for your consideration and help,
Rich
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Reasonably nimble and care-free handling. Much depends on wing sweep: with wings forward you get the highest turn performance but the roll rate isn't that eye-watering (hence spoilers); with wings further back you gain roll performance but lose turn performance.
She's a big old bomb bus made of girders!
She's a big old bomb bus made of girders!
] with that.
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Thanks folks,
If you don't mind me asking, what was the stability like at different stages of flight, and how was the acceleration/deceleration when loaded or unloaded.
Thanks for your help,
Rich
If you don't mind me asking, what was the stability like at different stages of flight, and how was the acceleration/deceleration when loaded or unloaded.
Thanks for your help,
Rich
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You might care to have a look at 'Winged Warriors - The Cold War from the Cockpit'. A couple of chapters describe the authors experiences in both cockpits of the GR1 in the 1980s.
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Depends
Hi, at it's best at low level with the wings back at 45 sweep doing 450kts. Solid stable platform, reasonable roll rate and crisp in pitch. 500kts plus best at 63 sweep.
At its worse at 20,000 feet over Iraq in 8.6 fit when a break to avoid what appeared to be a missile lock resulted in a feeble 90 degree direction change and a loss of about fifty knots of IAS.
At its worse at 20,000 feet over Iraq in 8.6 fit when a break to avoid what appeared to be a missile lock resulted in a feeble 90 degree direction change and a loss of about fifty knots of IAS.
I'm not sure how anyone would answer that. Any description that a pilot could give you in a PPRuNe post would be, at best, subjective and, therefore, you couldn't translate it into code. I would suggest you need a GR1/4/4a pilot to work with you and develop your model through an iterative process.
Also, the aircraft has already been simulated so a lot of this work must already have been done.
The test pilots will already have measured things like stick force vs roll rate, pitch rate, stability, etc. Surely that sort of data would make far more sense to a simulation than unquantified descriptions that anyone could give you here.
I'm guessing that you're talking about a computer model for an FSX-style sim?
Also, the aircraft has already been simulated so a lot of this work must already have been done.
The test pilots will already have measured things like stick force vs roll rate, pitch rate, stability, etc. Surely that sort of data would make far more sense to a simulation than unquantified descriptions that anyone could give you here.
I'm guessing that you're talking about a computer model for an FSX-style sim?
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Courtney,
Carefree handling throughout the flight envelope. Could you not bring yourself how great it was. The one thing that could be said is that the Tornado is/was easy to fly, however, not as easy to operate.
The aircraft was fitted with a Spin Prevention and Incidence Limiting System SPILS which while achieving it's aim it did limit the performance at high AoA. An improved system was available but the MOD would not pay for the enhancement.
Carefree handling throughout the flight envelope. Could you not bring yourself how great it was. The one thing that could be said is that the Tornado is/was easy to fly, however, not as easy to operate.
The aircraft was fitted with a Spin Prevention and Incidence Limiting System SPILS which while achieving it's aim it did limit the performance at high AoA. An improved system was available but the MOD would not pay for the enhancement.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Dominator2
Don't disagree your words but CM's point is that such information cannot be turned into accurate simulator software. You need quantitative data for that.
Don't disagree your words but CM's point is that such information cannot be turned into accurate simulator software. You need quantitative data for that.
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Thanks for the help folks.
Yes you are right that I am looking at a computer model for a home sim.
The difficulty I have is that all I can currently get hold of is the document I have linked to. Whilst quantitative, and by default very valuable as a resource, it doesn't really tell me much about the experience.
Courtney, John, I agree entirely but sadly I have no resources or information covering flight test data such as pitch rates or even roll rates. I fully appreciate the difficulty of transferring experience, and thus subjective information, into a useable quantitative form of data, but all one can hope for is to convey that experience in a very limited sense and to the best of one's abilities.
I'm obviously not looking for the depth of information pertinent to a high fidelity real life training sim, but to the same extent, I'm keen to at least try to see something which doesn't behave like a 737 with some different performance numbers plugged in.
I am obviously neither a test pilot nor an engineer, but I am always hugely grateful for any help people can offer,
Thanks,
Rich
Yes you are right that I am looking at a computer model for a home sim.
The difficulty I have is that all I can currently get hold of is the document I have linked to. Whilst quantitative, and by default very valuable as a resource, it doesn't really tell me much about the experience.
Courtney, John, I agree entirely but sadly I have no resources or information covering flight test data such as pitch rates or even roll rates. I fully appreciate the difficulty of transferring experience, and thus subjective information, into a useable quantitative form of data, but all one can hope for is to convey that experience in a very limited sense and to the best of one's abilities.
I'm obviously not looking for the depth of information pertinent to a high fidelity real life training sim, but to the same extent, I'm keen to at least try to see something which doesn't behave like a 737 with some different performance numbers plugged in.
I am obviously neither a test pilot nor an engineer, but I am always hugely grateful for any help people can offer,
Thanks,
Rich
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Obs cop, have you looked into published papers and theses from university students? I can't say I've ever seen anything specifically about Tornado but modelling aircraft performance based on published data (and stopwatch data from public demos) isn't unknown in the student world. While the nth level of CSAS handling characteristics won't be available, Tornado is still just an aeroplane of known geometry, weight, thrust and so on. If a particular feature isn't readily available such as cg position, an educated guess will often give a surprisingly good approximation.
EAP
EAP
Obs cop,
I could write a qualitative overview of Tornado flying qualities for you but I don't think that you could establish a simulation model from it. However, it could be useful for assessing an existing model for fidelity. Before I put a lot of time into it, let me know if it will be useful. However, one issue that you will inevitably face is that of the force/displacement gradients of the stick and its oscillatory characteristics. The stick displacements are large with relatively high forces at full back stick, and if a rapid input is made and the stick then released the oscillations take a while to damp out both laterally and longitudinally. Whilst this characteristic per se is not obvious it does make putting the stick rapidly and precisely back to the trim position difficult which can exacerbate PIO tendencies. These characteristics do affect a pilot's qualitative opinion of high gain closed loop flying qualities such as during formation flying or air-to-air refuelling quite significantly and I doubt that you could simulate those in a home computer based simulator. Good luck!
L
I could write a qualitative overview of Tornado flying qualities for you but I don't think that you could establish a simulation model from it. However, it could be useful for assessing an existing model for fidelity. Before I put a lot of time into it, let me know if it will be useful. However, one issue that you will inevitably face is that of the force/displacement gradients of the stick and its oscillatory characteristics. The stick displacements are large with relatively high forces at full back stick, and if a rapid input is made and the stick then released the oscillations take a while to damp out both laterally and longitudinally. Whilst this characteristic per se is not obvious it does make putting the stick rapidly and precisely back to the trim position difficult which can exacerbate PIO tendencies. These characteristics do affect a pilot's qualitative opinion of high gain closed loop flying qualities such as during formation flying or air-to-air refuelling quite significantly and I doubt that you could simulate those in a home computer based simulator. Good luck!
L
Lomcevak,
I don't think stick forces will be an issue for a desktop simulation, given that users will have a generic joystick without stick force, although feedback versions are available. Depending on the intended market, I would doubt the fine detail of Tornado handling will be worthwhile, maybe even a distraction.
That said, I think your idea about stick displacements is a good one. Without that sort of detail all flight sims would end up pretty much identical (in terms of handling).
EAP,
Good point about seeking out academic papers.
I don't think stick forces will be an issue for a desktop simulation, given that users will have a generic joystick without stick force, although feedback versions are available. Depending on the intended market, I would doubt the fine detail of Tornado handling will be worthwhile, maybe even a distraction.
That said, I think your idea about stick displacements is a good one. Without that sort of detail all flight sims would end up pretty much identical (in terms of handling).
EAP,
Good point about seeking out academic papers.
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Thanks all for your help, it's greatly appreciated.
I have searched for academic papers, but sadly there aren't any specific to the Tornado and I'm not sure I have the aptitude to extract pertinent data from a dissimilar model in a use-able form. I suspect that I lack the higher level mathematical skills to extrapolate such information into a basic 32 bit home PC model.
I now have a copy of a performance manual, which at least should allow me to try to "match" the numbers.
I'm already concious that the disparity between controls in the aircraft and those of a joystick attached to a home PC invariably means that stick force/deflection is impossible to transfer. Until home computers can accurately reproduce such elements as stick forces, tactile feedback, control displacement and so on, then ultimately home PC's live in the world of hobbies and entertainment and no more.
I certainly don't want to take up anyone's time unduly but it would help me out to know such things as any areas of the flight envelope which demonstrated reduced control effectiveness or conversely excessive sensitivity. Any areas which could be problematic such as use of rudder/ailerons at high AoA. In essence, these 'traits' can be minimally modelled using scalars within the sim. I accept that they will not be 'quantitatively' reproduce-able to a high level of fidelity.
Sadly, losing my military flying (not fast jet) to illness and my civilian class 1 to cancer, I'm in the same world as the vast majority of aviation lovers out there; sat at a desk at home with an average PC trying to enjoy any aspects of aviation that I can.
Ultimately, I greatly appreciate any overviews or opinions about the performance or handling which people are willing to offer in helping me so that at least I don't end up with a pointy looking two seat 737.
Huge thanks,
Rich
I have searched for academic papers, but sadly there aren't any specific to the Tornado and I'm not sure I have the aptitude to extract pertinent data from a dissimilar model in a use-able form. I suspect that I lack the higher level mathematical skills to extrapolate such information into a basic 32 bit home PC model.
I now have a copy of a performance manual, which at least should allow me to try to "match" the numbers.
I'm already concious that the disparity between controls in the aircraft and those of a joystick attached to a home PC invariably means that stick force/deflection is impossible to transfer. Until home computers can accurately reproduce such elements as stick forces, tactile feedback, control displacement and so on, then ultimately home PC's live in the world of hobbies and entertainment and no more.
I certainly don't want to take up anyone's time unduly but it would help me out to know such things as any areas of the flight envelope which demonstrated reduced control effectiveness or conversely excessive sensitivity. Any areas which could be problematic such as use of rudder/ailerons at high AoA. In essence, these 'traits' can be minimally modelled using scalars within the sim. I accept that they will not be 'quantitatively' reproduce-able to a high level of fidelity.
Sadly, losing my military flying (not fast jet) to illness and my civilian class 1 to cancer, I'm in the same world as the vast majority of aviation lovers out there; sat at a desk at home with an average PC trying to enjoy any aspects of aviation that I can.
Ultimately, I greatly appreciate any overviews or opinions about the performance or handling which people are willing to offer in helping me so that at least I don't end up with a pointy looking two seat 737.
Huge thanks,
Rich
