To post or not to post that is the Question
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To post or not to post that is the Question
There seems to be many a thread hijacked/drifted and overtaken by the relentless discussion, debate and endless waffle about what constitutes a valid contribution to a thread and what doesn't.
It would seem that for those tragic incidents that occur, 2 threads would be a good solution from the very start. One for condolences (if required) and one for the tech/rumour update.
As always the response of members who post threads is subjective. Much of what is said on this forum (sometime to much castigation) would be discussed in crew rooms across the few military bases we have left without the the scolding retorts offered.
No one knows everything and we can always learn. Some members who frequent this site may ask blindingly obvious (maybe even stupid - if there is such a thing) questions? Lets just take them at face value and answer them.
Not a rant just casual observation that 50% of the content of all threads is in no way related to the threads.
It would seem that for those tragic incidents that occur, 2 threads would be a good solution from the very start. One for condolences (if required) and one for the tech/rumour update.
As always the response of members who post threads is subjective. Much of what is said on this forum (sometime to much castigation) would be discussed in crew rooms across the few military bases we have left without the the scolding retorts offered.
No one knows everything and we can always learn. Some members who frequent this site may ask blindingly obvious (maybe even stupid - if there is such a thing) questions? Lets just take them at face value and answer them.
Not a rant just casual observation that 50% of the content of all threads is in no way related to the threads.
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And the prize example of this is "Gaining a RAF Pilots' Brevet in WWII", which its very wise Moderators have allowed to ramble all over the place (and on which no harsh word is tolerated).
In consequence they and we have the most popular Thread on "Military Aviation", with the highest number of Posts and "Views" (bar "Caption Competition", which is clearly a case apart), and which has been running since 2008 with no sign of running out of steam yet.
Long may it continue !
D.
In consequence they and we have the most popular Thread on "Military Aviation", with the highest number of Posts and "Views" (bar "Caption Competition", which is clearly a case apart), and which has been running since 2008 with no sign of running out of steam yet.
Long may it continue !
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And a damned fine thread it is.
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They are well managed by Mods and those posting. How does that transpire in to the more emotive threads. Some of which rightly or wrongly have requests to post or not to post certain things.
To my mind I think people should be free to post what they wish (so long as no deliberate malicious intent) even though it might be contentious. I have no issue with requests for threads to be censured or advice on what to post given. But it should be up to the respondents to decide if they take that advice and not castigated if they do not.
Being close to the XV230 incident I find it difficult to accept the, XXXX may read this thread so please do not write this or that etc idea. In todays world of instant social media people will write many things many of us would chose not to. It is up to us to either read it or not, and also in a world of free speech, post any retort if you so feel the need.
To my mind I think people should be free to post what they wish (so long as no deliberate malicious intent) even though it might be contentious. I have no issue with requests for threads to be censured or advice on what to post given. But it should be up to the respondents to decide if they take that advice and not castigated if they do not.
Being close to the XV230 incident I find it difficult to accept the, XXXX may read this thread so please do not write this or that etc idea. In todays world of instant social media people will write many things many of us would chose not to. It is up to us to either read it or not, and also in a world of free speech, post any retort if you so feel the need.
I think you're getting a bit sensitive about this. I'm guessing this has been brought on by the A400 thread. I would say just three things.
Yes this is a rumour network and much the richer for being so. Frankly, who gives a stuff about thread drift; those bits are often more interesting than the original subject and the Mods here are pretty tollerant about that. How long have you known the average conversation to stay 'on topic'? It's fine, as long as the thread doesn't get hijacked by people with an agenda. IMHO.
Concerning the crew room chat. Your average crew room is occupied by like-minded people, discussing topics of mutual interest. Not always 'wholesome' and very often not for public consumption. I've yet to see a crew room open to scrutiny by anyone that cares to click into a website. Everything that is written here is visible to the World. My point being that the simile only works up to a point. Folk with an interest in a particular topic may well find their way here and, sometimes, be somewhat surprised by what posters are writing. In the same vane, the argument that 'if you don't like what's written here offends, done come here' is slightly misinformed for the same reason. Just saying.
Finally, in the case of the A400 thread, one of our regular and well-respected members had requested (just requested) that we all excercise a little restraint, for reasons some of you will have seen. I think that was to do with respect and dignity. Some of the posts that followed clearly did not reflect that. They don't have to accede to the request; no one wrote any new laws. But this is a community and mutual respect is an important aspect in any discussion. So it's hardly surprising that a few of the regulars asked everyone to back off on the speculation, especially when it occasionally became a bit insensitive.
For the most part, these threads wander around and throw up all sorts of excellent thoughts and gems from a lot of very experienced and talented thinkers. Long may that live! Apart from a few forthright comments, I don't think anyone jumped on the outrage bus on the thread in question.
Yes this is a rumour network and much the richer for being so. Frankly, who gives a stuff about thread drift; those bits are often more interesting than the original subject and the Mods here are pretty tollerant about that. How long have you known the average conversation to stay 'on topic'? It's fine, as long as the thread doesn't get hijacked by people with an agenda. IMHO.
Concerning the crew room chat. Your average crew room is occupied by like-minded people, discussing topics of mutual interest. Not always 'wholesome' and very often not for public consumption. I've yet to see a crew room open to scrutiny by anyone that cares to click into a website. Everything that is written here is visible to the World. My point being that the simile only works up to a point. Folk with an interest in a particular topic may well find their way here and, sometimes, be somewhat surprised by what posters are writing. In the same vane, the argument that 'if you don't like what's written here offends, done come here' is slightly misinformed for the same reason. Just saying.
Finally, in the case of the A400 thread, one of our regular and well-respected members had requested (just requested) that we all excercise a little restraint, for reasons some of you will have seen. I think that was to do with respect and dignity. Some of the posts that followed clearly did not reflect that. They don't have to accede to the request; no one wrote any new laws. But this is a community and mutual respect is an important aspect in any discussion. So it's hardly surprising that a few of the regulars asked everyone to back off on the speculation, especially when it occasionally became a bit insensitive.
For the most part, these threads wander around and throw up all sorts of excellent thoughts and gems from a lot of very experienced and talented thinkers. Long may that live! Apart from a few forthright comments, I don't think anyone jumped on the outrage bus on the thread in question.
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As I think I am the person Courtney is referring to, I offer the following:
My request was, on the whole, sensitively respected - which, in the initial aftermath of last week's events was very welcome and gratifying. Only one idiot let loose with some wild, uninformed speculation, and I think, (reading between the lines,) that as he, and his posts have disappeared from the A400M thread, the Moderators saw fit to act appropriately.
I welcome open debate and discussion on this, or indeed, any other topic - all I asked for in the immediate aftermath of the event was for a little understanding, which I'm pleased to say was sensibly observed.
My request was, on the whole, sensitively respected - which, in the initial aftermath of last week's events was very welcome and gratifying. Only one idiot let loose with some wild, uninformed speculation, and I think, (reading between the lines,) that as he, and his posts have disappeared from the A400M thread, the Moderators saw fit to act appropriately.
I welcome open debate and discussion on this, or indeed, any other topic - all I asked for in the immediate aftermath of the event was for a little understanding, which I'm pleased to say was sensibly observed.
Courtney Mil,
I'm with you, and TT on this one. Like many I have been close to people lost in accidents, and feel uncomfortable at speculation, seemingly trying to out do the gutter press, within minutes of the announcement of the incident. I think that most who regularly post on the Military Thread fully recognise this, and refrain from doing so, and, that often, those who do act, as happened with the A400 thread, have not given due thought to the effect their "opinions" may have on close friends and relatives. One thing for sure, whilst such erudite characters as yourselves maintain an interest in the ramblings of the rest of us, we won't stray too far from the straight and narrow.
Smudge
I'm with you, and TT on this one. Like many I have been close to people lost in accidents, and feel uncomfortable at speculation, seemingly trying to out do the gutter press, within minutes of the announcement of the incident. I think that most who regularly post on the Military Thread fully recognise this, and refrain from doing so, and, that often, those who do act, as happened with the A400 thread, have not given due thought to the effect their "opinions" may have on close friends and relatives. One thing for sure, whilst such erudite characters as yourselves maintain an interest in the ramblings of the rest of us, we won't stray too far from the straight and narrow.
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I detect an outbreak of common sense, mature judgement and mutual consideration! Is this really PPRuNe, or have I inadvertently strayed into a parallel universe?
On a more serious note, well said guys!
On a more serious note, well said guys!
middleground:-
More common sense, as already expressed here:-
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...e-info-28.html
which has been respected in the 9 years that it has run, even by those (like me!) with "an agenda".
I would endorse Danny's well justified pride in the WWII Pilots Brevet thread, but respectfully suggest that he augment his tag to, "The best of all threads on the best of all forums".
....One for condolences (if required) and one for the tech/rumour update.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...e-info-28.html
which has been respected in the 9 years that it has run, even by those (like me!) with "an agenda".
I would endorse Danny's well justified pride in the WWII Pilots Brevet thread, but respectfully suggest that he augment his tag to, "The best of all threads on the best of all forums".
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The problem is that every single crash has almost certainly got someone like TT who knows the people involved and is a regular on here.
If we do it for one, what is the justification for not doing it for all?
Not much of a rumour website if we can't talk about the serious stuff.
I think it is possible to discuss these things without being overly offensive. We don't want to descend to the usual flightsim retard-fest like the last few biggies on the rumours page, yet we do want to be able to discuss.
Every crash discussion will upset someone. That is not a reason not to discuss them.
If we do it for one, what is the justification for not doing it for all?
Not much of a rumour website if we can't talk about the serious stuff.
I think it is possible to discuss these things without being overly offensive. We don't want to descend to the usual flightsim retard-fest like the last few biggies on the rumours page, yet we do want to be able to discuss.
Every crash discussion will upset someone. That is not a reason not to discuss them.
Very true, Tourist, but it isn't every thread where a member asks for respect and consideration. Perhaps, though, we should all think before posting speculative remarks anyway.
Specifically, I think your third paragraph hits the nail on the head.
I would say, "without being offensive or insensitive". We should be doing that all the time - I hold my hands up to over-stepping that mark on occasions, the same as anyone else. As I wrote before, a crew room is a closed room, this forum is public and the rules here are designed to uphold those ideals anyway. It should all be down to the Mods to look after that aspect of the forum.
How many times have you and I seen, "Sounds like the crew..." or "this wouldn't have happened if..."? Even before any technical or investigative findings have been announced? They'll be plenty to discuss when there is some news.
I agree with you, there is a delicate balance to be struck and we are all sometimes tempted to get it wrong. TT's request in this recent case was probably a good reminder and, if nothing else, it's provoked a healthy discussion on the subject.
Specifically, I think your third paragraph hits the nail on the head.
Originally Posted by Tourist
I think it is possible to discuss these things without being overly offensive. We don't want to descend to the usual flightsim retard-fest like the last few biggies on the rumours page, yet we do want to be able to discuss.
How many times have you and I seen, "Sounds like the crew..." or "this wouldn't have happened if..."? Even before any technical or investigative findings have been announced? They'll be plenty to discuss when there is some news.
I agree with you, there is a delicate balance to be struck and we are all sometimes tempted to get it wrong. TT's request in this recent case was probably a good reminder and, if nothing else, it's provoked a healthy discussion on the subject.
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Courtney Mil,
I am not sensitive at all about this and no one thread was/is responsible for this one.
It just made sense to debate the pros and cons of posts and request, in one thread as oppose to having the same discussion in every thread about what is or is not appropriate.
Common sense has a lot going for it, but in some cases it can still be missing from individuals......
Clockworks Mouses post (albeit tongue wedged firmly in cheek) does typify the normality to which responses are given. Often with sarcasm and condescending tones.
The reality is that, there should really be no need to ask for respect or certain topics to not be discussed. As human beings we should be tolerant, respectful and curious to others, even if our opinions differ. We should also not be offended when people voice their difference of opinions.
The Glen Ogle Thread was typical of a politer request being made (post No16), yet all this did was highlight something that was not mentioned in the previous 15 posts. It then gained more attention that likely would have if not mentioned.
All other points are well made and valid in my eyes. I am not easily offended and accept sometime villages are missing idiots and that they have PPrune accounts
I am not sensitive at all about this and no one thread was/is responsible for this one.
It just made sense to debate the pros and cons of posts and request, in one thread as oppose to having the same discussion in every thread about what is or is not appropriate.
Common sense has a lot going for it, but in some cases it can still be missing from individuals......
Clockworks Mouses post (albeit tongue wedged firmly in cheek) does typify the normality to which responses are given. Often with sarcasm and condescending tones.
The reality is that, there should really be no need to ask for respect or certain topics to not be discussed. As human beings we should be tolerant, respectful and curious to others, even if our opinions differ. We should also not be offended when people voice their difference of opinions.
The Glen Ogle Thread was typical of a politer request being made (post No16), yet all this did was highlight something that was not mentioned in the previous 15 posts. It then gained more attention that likely would have if not mentioned.
All other points are well made and valid in my eyes. I am not easily offended and accept sometime villages are missing idiots and that they have PPrune accounts
Middleground, yeah, I totally take your points and I also think this is a topic worthy of discussion. Let's face it, it's an issue that comes up very often - usually when there's bad news. Unfortunately, we're all in danger of finding ourselves in violent agreement because the people that will read this and post here are not the "member since 1999, posts 34" lot that seem to appear out of the woodwork whenever they get a holiday from their villages.
You are, of course, right. I guess anyone can start two threads on any topic if they want to; one titled 'Nice stuff only', the other called 'Trolls, FSX Fans and rubber-neckers'. Maybe another, useful one called 'Considered, expert opinion and appropriate questions, rumours and news'. Actually, and to completely honest, I normally have enough trouble following the few threads that look like they'll interest me, especially if my rural France "broadband" connection's been out for a day or so and I'm trying to catch up!
Good thread, Sir.
You are, of course, right. I guess anyone can start two threads on any topic if they want to; one titled 'Nice stuff only', the other called 'Trolls, FSX Fans and rubber-neckers'. Maybe another, useful one called 'Considered, expert opinion and appropriate questions, rumours and news'. Actually, and to completely honest, I normally have enough trouble following the few threads that look like they'll interest me, especially if my rural France "broadband" connection's been out for a day or so and I'm trying to catch up!
Good thread, Sir.
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I wonder if my comment also raised your concerns Middleground,
I raised my concerns that the thread was going the way some of the other had, just full of conjecture.
It also concerned me in the fact that Trumpet-Trousers was an early thread poster and his close friends and colleagues were involved
( Who incidentally has behaved impeccably during what must be a trying time for him and he must have been biting his tongue reading some of the posts, he has shown himself to be a true gentleman)
I realise it is the web and all that, but would you stand within earshot of someone who had lost close friends and discuss their deaths? I don't think so. And that is why I tried to lightly mention it wasn't the place or time, right or wrong I felt it was the thing to do and they were done with the best intention.
I raised my concerns that the thread was going the way some of the other had, just full of conjecture.
It also concerned me in the fact that Trumpet-Trousers was an early thread poster and his close friends and colleagues were involved
( Who incidentally has behaved impeccably during what must be a trying time for him and he must have been biting his tongue reading some of the posts, he has shown himself to be a true gentleman)
I realise it is the web and all that, but would you stand within earshot of someone who had lost close friends and discuss their deaths? I don't think so. And that is why I tried to lightly mention it wasn't the place or time, right or wrong I felt it was the thing to do and they were done with the best intention.
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It also concerned me in the fact that Trumpet-Trousers was an early thread poster and his close friends and colleagues were involved....
.....I realise it is the web and all that, but would you stand within earshot of someone who had lost close friends and discuss their deaths? I don't think so. And that is why I tried to lightly mention it wasn't the place or time, right or wrong I felt it was the thing to do and they were done with the best intention.
.....I realise it is the web and all that, but would you stand within earshot of someone who had lost close friends and discuss their deaths? I don't think so. And that is why I tried to lightly mention it wasn't the place or time, right or wrong I felt it was the thing to do and they were done with the best intention.
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True, but you do not tend to get personal involvement in them.
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Well, maybe, but I'm pretty sure that there are German Wings, Air France, Asiana, MH, etc. crew on this forum, that might have had a personal involvement.
Any discussion has the potential for personal involvement.
Any discussion has the potential for personal involvement.