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Camouflage

Old 28th Apr 2015, 21:31
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August 190 in AHQ Riyadh the Brits were all wearing European DMP, as at that time there was no UK Desert Kit available ( allegedly sold to the Iraqi's).

Questions from our ex-colonial cousins as to why we Brits thought it was a good idea to fight a desert war dressed as trees, was countered by the response was that they were to do the desert fighting, while our plan was to fight in the oases. Mostly they believed it!!
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Old 29th Apr 2015, 07:55
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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I have the same issue(?!) as Stanwell - CP4 reds/greens, according to the Ishihara test... and yet the missus always congratulates me on my shirt/tie combos and even asks me to colour-coordinate her when she dresses.

There are some non-intuitive issues relating to shade differentiation. I remember standing at the mouth of the River Tees looking at the navigation posts and being asked what I could see. They were both 'black', and yet I was assured that one was red and one was green. On the other hand, I was asked once by someone to do the coloured lights test - as a test/practice run - which the CAA was using just a few years ago. I failed. The examiner said that she could see from one light to the next whether something was yellow/white/orange etc. I, by contrast (see what I did there?) was seeing all sort of sharp whites, warm whites, etc. I could 'see' the colours. The problem was that if the light I'd just seen was, say, yellow and the next was paler, to me (by process of elimination) that had to be a white.

I remain adamant that I wasn't 'wrong' but that how I see was overcomplicating things. I hope that makes sense.

On DPM, I'd add my weight to the argument that the earlier 72 Pattern was the better compromise. By the time CS95 came about, all it was good for was thrashing about in the pine.

In fact, when MTP first arrived, my immediate reaction was to wonder why they didn't just re-use 72 pattern.

But then I obviously see things differently to most people.
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Old 29th Apr 2015, 12:23
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ExAscoteer:

Thank you, and that makes a lot of sense.
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Old 29th Apr 2015, 15:32
  #44 (permalink)  
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Chopper asked why the earlier desert brown was mot used the second time around.

The reason is probably a different aim for concealment. The desert camouflage would work when there was a significant air threat. If no air threat then optimise your camouflage the next higher threat.

As for the false cockpit, the Vulcan too when it went to all over gave the same result. On the first Red Flag the aircraft had either anti-flash white or light grey. Near invisible until it banked when it flashed Here I Am.

With the new scheme you knew it was banking,but which way?
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Old 30th Apr 2015, 11:40
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Camouflage Uniform

Gentlemen, surely if you need to wear some form of camouflage you are far too close to the enemy. I prefer my camouflage uniform to be in the form of a business suit, so that I can blend in at the hotel.
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Old 30th Apr 2015, 14:33
  #46 (permalink)  
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DH, not been in many hotels recently?

Seriously even in hotels like Hilton, Sofitel, and a certain London club during weekends, you would stand out like a sore thumb in a suit.

When I used to go up to town I felt underdressed without jacket and tie. Now, in Londistan I feel overextended in a jacket.
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Old 30th Apr 2015, 18:48
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Wensleydale,

Your picture shows that the Vulc would've been ideally placed if it had been static. However, ISTR that the principles of camoflague/ concealment were:

Shape Shine Shadow Size Silhouette and Movement

- your Vulcan would've still stood out against its surroundings unless they too were doing around 240 kts in the same direction.

I'm currently finding that colour schemes meant to provide high visibility under all circumstances are - as commented by AR1, M the M and ExAscot - occasionally counter-productive. My bright yellow 135, when moving slowly along powerlines at around 30' agl, is invisible to nearby aviators/airfields when I'm anywhere near oilseed rape or even wheat/barley fields. The Filton Air Ambo, which is a particularly lurid green, was (this afternoon) like the proverbial dogs-bits when observed down-sun but invisible against most backgrounds if viewed into sun. As for gliders on sunny days... a real pain to see, despite (or, more likely, because of) the white colouration.
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Old 1st May 2015, 07:14
  #48 (permalink)  
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Which begs the question why the majority of civil aircraft are mostly white in colour!

Come to that, I watched a Dutch submarine come in to port recently; I don't know whether black is hard to spot from the air while submerged but it's very conspicuous on the surface.
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Old 1st May 2015, 08:20
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After a number of mid-air collisions and near collisions the Air Cadets put large patches of Dayglo on the wings of their gliders. The problem was that at the range you'd want to spot the glider so that you could avoid it the patches broke up the outline and made them harder to see. Result - Dayglo camouflage.
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Old 1st May 2015, 08:47
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As it is a submarine . . . .

What does show up well underwater is the white and red escape hatches
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Old 1st May 2015, 10:26
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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VX275 ... you highlight the 'shape' issue nicely!
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Old 1st May 2015, 16:15
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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White Gliders

I heard a scheme where the control surfaces of white GRP aircraft would be fitted with a silvered window tint style silver foil that would twinkle with the constant twitching of the controls.

Did anything come of this as it sounds like it had merit.

Also I have a picture of a Viking being winched with dayglo patches. Port side not much use in the bright light but the Starboard side the duller conditions meant that wing was invisible save the patches.

See
http://www.edenbridgeaircadets.com/whatwedo.php?page=6

Getting something to work under all conditions seems difficult
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Old 1st May 2015, 19:12
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Shaft109
Getting something to work under all conditions seems difficult
That's why people still, generally, see aircraft ... either from the ground or in the air.

The multi-spectral challenge has moved on from "painting it wiggly brown/green". There are so many dimensions to CCD its almost a science in itself.

Many lessons were learned in WW2, and subsequently ignored, other current ones may depend on technology ... but slapping paint on an aircraft [or things on the ground] can have complex consequences.

From my relatively limited work in this field, I vote for "Deception" as the others are really rather hard to achieve.
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Old 1st May 2015, 19:17
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Many lessons were learned in WW2...
The Germans certainly seemed to have made some advances in the field of aircraft camo....

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Old 1st May 2015, 19:20
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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A classic photo, against the perfect background.

At 5,000 ft in a furball, how would that look from, say, 500 yards?

Like the Vulcan over Canada, a static shot aginst an ideal background in only a fraction of the story.
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Old 1st May 2015, 21:15
  #56 (permalink)  
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MPN 11, the first question is what is the threat. If the greatest threat is from Air to ground then a static camouflage is fine. If it has air to air benefits then that is a bonus.
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Old 1st May 2015, 21:18
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Civilian aircraft are white to reflect heat - keeps the walking freight a bit cooler.
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Old 2nd May 2015, 09:50
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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MPN 11, the first question is what is the threat. If the greatest threat is from Air to ground then a static camouflage is fine. If it has air to air benefits then that is a bonus.
Indeed, PN ... if the threat is A>G in a purely visual context, then appropriate terrain-matching camouflage paint is certainly an option [provided the ground colours/patterns remain broadly constant at every deployed location].

However, I personally believe that a mix of concealment and deception is probably more effective in the 'static aircraft' context - especially the latter. In that context I would rate dummy aircraft, and indeed operating surfaces, as highly effective decoy/deception measures. Indeed, contra-camouflage [i.e. decidedly less than optimal] could/would attract the attention of attacking forces.

At one stage I was starting to attempt to acquire multi-spectral* Tornado decoys for deployment at MOBs specifically to attract the attention of the 'bad guys', whilst dispersing the 'real aircraft' around the airfield periphery. Then the Cold War ended

* including in-built thermal image generation
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Old 2nd May 2015, 12:27
  #59 (permalink)  
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MPN, I believe with the UK Base huge quantities of paint and money were wasted on tone down. Tone down against what?

The threat from tactical aircraft using optical systems was non-existent.

The threat from missiles was real but the defence non-existent.

The threat from strategic and tactical bombers was possible but using tone-down was illogical against a blind bombing devices. To a bomber, identifying a target wad unnecessary, we would aim at what our friends would call a PRSL or precise radar significant location. The only defences there are interceptors, missiles, and jammers. I wonder why we never deployed ground jammers?
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Old 3rd May 2015, 07:42
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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...and sometimes there is no camouflage.


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