Falklands anyone?

[ricardian]

A cartoon (with English sub-titles) shown on Argentinian TV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=819&v=VKkcTpCur7g

[Exnomad]

We have no aircraft carrier, no sea Harriers, no Vulcan. I belive we keep a couple of Aircraft at Stanley, but surely not enough to resist a serious attack.

[cornish-stormrider]

4x tiffin = "a couple of aircraft"

hmmm, no mention - as you would expect of a T boat (have we retired these?) or similar skulking about in the water.

[Courtney Mil]

We have no aircraft carrier, no sea Harriers, no Vulcan. I belive we keep a couple of Aircraft at Stanley, but surely not enough to resist a serious attack.

Couple? Stanley?

I believe Argentina keeps a couple of aircraft at Villa Reynolds, but surely not enough to mount a serious attack.

But they have no aircraft carrier, no Sea Harriers, no Vulcan. Nothing to match Typhoon.

[MPN11]

Perhaps the "need" for Garrison enhancements has now been revealed?

Oil and gas discovered off Falkland Islands - Telegraph

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by SAMXXV

The USA & EU have pushed Russia to the limit with financial sanctions & sooner rather than later Russia will push across the Western European Plain with an armoured push.

Uh, what? Not sure if you kept up with current events, but the Red Army is considerably smaller than when that was a daily concern during the cold war.

Hempy:

Given the support shown to the Yanks (ops Telic, Herrick et. al.), even IF the Argies were prepared to bankrupt themselves for a crappy piece of dirt that really means nothing to anyone bar 'national pride', and even IF the UK couldn't meet said threat with superior force, surely good friends from across the ditch would step in and lend a hand. Wouldn't they?

That's a puzzle to me, and I think I'd bet the under given President Obama's well displayed ambivalence towards the UK.

[Bannock]

"even IF the Argies were prepared to bankrupt themselves for a crappy piece of dirt "

Its not the dirt they need to save their economy, its whats under it and around it.

As oil starts to flow and we start waving two fingers at them just watch as they work themeselves into a frenzy. Its not just the island that need their defence beefed up, I think its the cash cows moored off shore that do.

As Senor Belgrano knows only to well. Just one Sub can ruin your day.

[Hempy]

Bannock, you make excellent points sir. And so it begins again..

Chinooks to boost falklands defence | Daily Mail Online

Premier, Falkland Oil & Gas and Rockhopper announce new discovery | Business | The Guardian

If it's about black gold surely good friends will help.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Hempy

Bannock, you make excellent points sir. And so it begins again..

Chinooks to boost falklands defence | Daily Mail Online

Premier, Falkland Oil & Gas and Rockhopper announce new discovery | Business | The Guardian

If it's about black gold surely good friends will help.

What are the odds of that black gold leading to an Argie/Brit cooperative operation rather than bickering and rivalry?
Is there a way to get a win-win deal out of this?
(A quick look up shows me that in Argentina there are nine operating oil refineries.)

[Training Risky]

an Argie/Brit cooperative operation rather than bickering and rivalry

Sir - you forget the preening, macho, hot-headed latin mindset. If it came to it - they would argue with gravity and insist on their right to float since 1833...

[Marcantilan]

Sir - you forget the preening, macho, hot-headed latin mindset

Interesting...

So, your idea about the average Argentine is:



I will buy a poncho, the hat, two revolvers...and I still need the moustache.

[Bannock]

"I will buy a poncho, the hat, two revolvers...and I still need the moustache."

Can you afford it?
As for the moustache.. My copy of Viz profanasaurus talks of a Dirty Sanchez.

[CAW]

What are the odds of that black gold leading to an Argie/Brit cooperative operation rather than bickering and rivalry?
Is there a way to get a win-win deal out of this?
(A quick look up shows me that in Argentina there are nine operating oil refineries.)

Up to this day, chances of cooperation as you suggest are none.

A deal was reached between 24 and 25 years ago to cooperate in the south Atlantic, leaving "the main issue" to be discussed later. By 2006 that issue was yet to be address as the British governments had refused to even have a quick chat on the matter.

Argentina did comply with the secret agreements and did scale-down its military presence down south, even shutting down a few military air bases, a radar site and preventing training amphibious operations to be carried on in Tierra del Fuego. Unfortunatly, this did not mean -as sugested in Madrid- that within a few years (may be at the beggining of the new century), the sovereignty conversations would begin.

By 2006, after some 15 years of patience, Argentina´s Governments decided that it was pretty obvious that the British Administrations were not willing to fulfill the commitments they had agreed to. The papers signed during the ´90s were denounced and only a SAR agreement (as far as I know) is currently "the only cooperation" the two nations carry on in the area.

On the other hand, it should be said that oil exploration and drilling has been carried out around the islands for some 10 years now. Not a single drill-site has yet turned out to be economically profitable (and with oil prices shrinking world-wide, this is not likely to happen soon). Plans for a "large oil port" at San Carlos have been silently abandoned. The construction of a new deep water port at Port Williams (Watt Cove, actually) is said to be just about to be started... most likely it is going to be a proper instalation for large cruisers and fishing vessels which are a real, clear and sure way for the islanders and the FIG to get cash.

[Lonewolf_50]

Thanks, CAW. Sad to see that more progress had not been made.

Marcantilian, FWIW: that picture looks a lot more like a stereotypical rendering of a Mexican bandito than it does a Gaucho. The sombrero looks to be more of Mexican provenance, and the blanket / pancho looks a whole lot like a blanket my wife got in Progresso about ten years ago.

I am familiar in a very personal way with the social and cultural phenomenon of Latino (mostly Latin American and Mexican heritage) males and machismo attitudes, thanks to where I live and who I know and work with ... and who I go to church with. It is disturbing to see how often this is hand waved away by people who are not exposed to the reality.

It is not a myth, but also it is not universal.

[PeterGee]

I do not believe the Falkland Islanders (or the UK) ever agreed sovereignty was up for discussion. It never will be until such time as the islanders want it to be. It is their home, no one else's. Not ours or Argentinas. I really do not understand why Argentina, a country founded on a colonial past, does not get it. The sooner it does, the sooner real beneficial cooperation for all is possible.

[CAW]

The islanders are british citizens. The consideration for "their interests" does not mean that their will is to define the issue.

It´s clearly a british government´s fetish to put "the islanders" before anything else.

On the other hand... how about the interests of the argentinean population expeled from the islands (some of them even shot dead on the spot... Port Louis that is) back in 1833? There´s a name for that nowadays: ethnic cleansing. Of course, I wouldn´t get that far... but those are the roots to this conflict. It was about to be solved back in the ´70s, when locals were not even treated as british citizens, and the 82 war -in a fantastic twist of fate- changed it all.

The tree might not be giving us those red, sweet apples anymore, but it remains an apple-tree. And this conflict, as defined by the UN, has nothing to do with the islanders despite every excuse that might be put out for sale.

[melmothtw]

CAW, unless you're a native American I'd go easy on the accusations of 'ethic cleansing'.

[Jimlad1]

Ultimately though, Argentina could easily have gained the Falklands back in the 1980s but chose to create the circumstances whereby invading meant that there is no realistic way these discussions will ever occur.

Having met Falklanders and heard about the way they were treated by the Argentines during the invasion, they have no desire to ever be Argentinean. The way to make the Falklands want to be Argentine is to love bomb them, not make them out to be nasty little colonialists.

The UK will talk to Argentina the day the Falkand Islanders ask them to do so - until Argentina stops clinging to a very odd and inaccurate account of history, comes to terms with the reality that whatever may or may not have happened early in the 19th century is utterly irrelevant in the early 21st century, and tries to find a way to work with the Islands, and not cling to them as some kind of mascot or charm, then this will continue to be a running sore.

The problem is Argentinas to solve - treating the Islanders like idiots, not potential countrymen is not the way to do it.

[Courtney Mil]

CAW, the history of the islands is far more complex than just 1833. As I'm sure you wil know, The Falklands changed many time throughout their history. One single occupation getting on for two centuries ago is hardly relevant today. Unless, of course, you think your homeland should be returned to Spain, regardless of the inhabitants think? Or that ALL the former occupants of The Falklands through the centuries should also have a claim.

Even if your country had any kind of moral claim to the islands, you gave it up when you used violence to invade and capture them and used force to place the rightful population under enforced rule against their will and in contravention of International Law.

You lost the right to complain in the eyes of the world. Time to give this one up.

[CAW]

CAW, unless you're a native American I'd go easy on the accusations of 'ethic cleansing'.

I do go easy on that.

Regarding the islands and the islanders, there never was a native population. The only ones that had been living for some decades were either argentineans or argentinean representatives (such as Louyis Vernet) by 1833.

The way to make the Falklands want to be Argentine is to love bomb them, not make them out to be nasty little colonialists.

The problem is not what the islanders want or want not. The islanders can and surely would remain british citizens, their way of living and government would be respected, their tax policy should and could have a special status, no mandatory educational or religious imposition would be put upon them... simply because they are not the issue.

Foreigners have been coming to this country for centuries. And I´m talking centuries of Argentina as a country, not "the former spanish colony". They have always been and still are quite welcomed. They could choose what to do regarding their birth citizenship, but still, the Constitution of this country grants them the very same rights as for the native ones (except on the political participation). It could and would not be different for the islanders.

CAW, the history of the islands is far more complex than just 1833. As I'm sure you wil know, The Falklands changed many time throughout their history... Or that ALL the former occupants of The Falklands through the centuries should also have a claim.

Former occupants? No permanet population was ever stablished there other than the spanish/argentinean at the very beggining of the XIX Century. French, British and other europeans never visit the island before the XVII Century... and of course they never stayed there. Diplomatic deals had stablished without doubt that the islands were to be a colonial spanish dependency by the late 1700. So that was the legal link that made the islands argentinean, not to mention that by 1833 they had been inhabited by people sent from the continental Argentina.

You lost the right to complain in the eyes of the world. Time to give this one up.

To the eyes of the world, as every year appears more obvious, the fact that a UN Resolution of 1965 is still being ignored by one of the two countries it addresses to, makes clear how usefull Diplomacy can be.

Now that a deal appears to have been cut with Iran, may be a chance for concrete chats on the matter could flourish. In any case, I think it is a great lesson for all involved.