Forces TV - 1st Gulf War 1991

[Darvan]

Reference Posts 28 and 32. I cannot comment on the reliability stats for TIALD but Pavespike was tasked on a total of 250 Buccaneer sorties and not one single sortie was lost due to Buccaneer or Pavespike unserviceability. Yes, there were many times when aircrew had to run for a spare Bucc following system function checks and, on occasions, one of a pair of Buccaneers had to spike for an unserviceable wingman's pod. Now that doesn't quite chime with Andy Vallence's claim that TIALD was a more reliable system than Pavespike, unless TIALD had a 100% serviceability record, which I somewhat doubt for a developmental capability rushed in to service under UOR. However, someone here may have knowledge of the overall reliability of TIALD. I can only comment on Pavespike and how, in the words of Peter de la Billiere, it saved the reputation of the Royal Air Force in the eyes of the US.

[Vendee]

in the words of Peter de la Billiere, it saved the reputation of the Royal Air Force in the eyes of the US.

But he's just a Pongo.... what would he know

[ivrytwr3]

I had my 18th birthday during my time on Op Granby!

No idea how i was allowed out there in the first place to be honest!

[Onceapilot]

Quote Darvan

" I can only comment on Pavespike and how, in the words of Peter de la Billiere, it saved the reputation of the Royal Air Force in the eyes of the US".

So, how did they view the contribution of JP233?

OAP

[Lima Juliet]

OAP

I thought the same. JP233 was a niche capability and needed a suicidal straight and level delivery along the runway. US PGMs would not have had the same effect, in my opinion. A few holes to be filled in by bulldozer the next day!

LJ

[Onceapilot]

LJ

Well, the difference in strategy of these weapons is considerable. The runway denial weapon was designed for maximum short term disruption of FJ air ops from a fixed base in a relatively hostile AD situation with approx 4 a/c to close an airfield. The PGM solution required virtual air supremacy at medium altitude to pick off point targets at approx 1 PGM per DMPI.

OAP

[Darvan]

Paveway IIs were used to systematically destroy hardened shelters, one by one. Some shelters had aircraft within them. When the majority of shelters had been demolished, entrances to the shelters were targeted, then the intersections with taxiways, and then finally PW IIs cratered the runways at regular intervals. All these DMPIs contributed to a systematic OCA campaign, which followed an Air Interdiction phase targeting bridges on the Tigris and Euphrates, and numerous POL sites. The RAF's employment of JP 233 was criticised heavily by the US authorities, particularly because of the heavy losses incurred. Buccaneers and Pavespike were deployed at very short notice (36 hrs notice) having been told just the day before by a UK 3 star that their services would not be required on Granby. The US changed the minds of the RAF's senior ranks overnight and 'encouraged' them to deploy their only PGM capability into theatre.

[ExAscoteer]

Originally Posted by Darvan

The RAF's employment of JP 233 was criticised heavily by the US authorities, particularly because of the heavy losses incurred.

Really?

What 'heavy losses' would they be then?

Only a single Tornado was lost on a JP233 attack and that well after weapon release.

[Darvan]

Yes, you are correct. The US was concerned about the losses due to the continued low level campaign rather than JP 233 attacks specifically. These comments are not meant as any criticism of the skill and bravery of the GR1 force who went in alone and brave at night but to highlight the concern the US had about our doctrine at the time, which conflicted with their own.

[John Nichol]

thanks for the replies & PMs - please do contact me if you or someone you know flew in the first few days of the air war.

& regarding the "LL losses" - this has been a much-misunderstood part of GR1 history. I'm sure someone has all the facts at their fingertips regarding the exact (or presumed) cause of each loss, but I can think of 2 of my fellow POW chums who were lost/shot down at medium level.

& certainly a number (majority?) of the US losses were medium level too.

Anyway, perhaps we will discuss it 'live' during the programme!

[TEEEJ]

Darvan wrote

to highlight the concern the US had about our doctrine at the time, which conflicted with their own

Apologies if I have mis-read your post. During those initial days did it really conflict with what the US and others were doing?

The initial phase of the campaign was at low level for many of the players and was apparently planned for three days. F-111s, F-15Es and even B-52s were in those initial days flown at low level to strike targets. A number of B-52Gs suffered combat damage at low level. One F-15Es was lost during a low-level mission near Basra. Again during this low level phase other Coalition aircraft suffered damage. One French Jaguar returned with its tail shredded.

After the initial part of the low level phase CENTAF ordered the switch to medium level operations. Details of the low level phase were highlighted in Operation Desert Storm - Evaluation of the Air

Campaign - General Accounting Office - House of Representatives.

Moreover, in the first 3 days of the war, some aircraft (B-52s, A-6Es, GR-1s, and F-111Fs) attacked at very low altitude, where they found they were vulnerable to low-altitude defenses—AAA and IR SAMs. As a result, on day two, Brig. Gen. Glosson ordered that all coalition aircraft observe a minimum attack level of about 12,000 feet.

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/ns97134.pdf

B-52 low level info.

Colonel Ramsay bio

In January 1991 he was the flight leader for the first night, low-level combat mission ever flown by a B-52G, leading 14 aircraft to strike five Iraqi airfields in the opening minutes of Operation Desert Storm.

http://www.151arw.ang.af.mil/resourc...o.asp?id=10878

On 17 January 1991, seven B-52Gs, known as the "Doom Flight", took off from Barksdale AFB in Louisiana to help kick off the air campaign. They performed a flight that lasted 35 hours and took them almost halfway around the world to launch 35 CALCMs and then go back home. The routes of the missiles were planned so that they would impact almost simultaneously, and 33 of them hit their assigned targets. That same day, the B-52G followed up this strike with the first low-level attacks conducted by the type after decades of training. Buffs swept into Iraqi airspace at an altitude of 90 meters (300 feet) to pound four airbases and a highway.

With Iraqi air defenses disabled, the B-52Gs then returned to high-altitude bombing, with three-ship formations pounding Iraqi troops concentrations in Iraq with 340 kilogram (750 pound) bombs and cluster bombs. The B-52 performed 1,600 sorties in the Gulf War and dropped 22,725 tonnes (25,000 tons) of munitions.

[2.0] B-52 At War

Major James Riggens, USAF also highlights the initial low-level phase in the following.

'Brilliant Attack: The Need For Autonomous Standoff Weapons in Airfield Attack Missions'

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...c=GetTRDoc.pdf

See also accounts online of low level operations - B-52 Stratofortress Units in Operation Desert Storm by Jon Lake

John Ritter, a 42nd BW pilot who flew with the the 4300th BW(P), recalled that, "We sent representatives up to Riyadh to advise the central air planners on how best to use our aeroplane. 'We wanted to fly low, preferably at night, protected by fighters and radar jamming aircraft. In the end, the planners decided that the B-52s would 'sneak in below radar cover for the first few nights and then go high bombing when it was safer'. Heavy casualties were expected according to John Ritter.
.....

'I flew several mission after that one - each is notable in its own way. Some nights the flak was so intense I felt I could have walked on it. Other nights, I just wanted to rain bombs down on the enemy, like the night Navy Lt Jeffrey Zaun appeared beaten on Iraqi TV. None, however, can compare to that first mission because of the way it changed us.'

Whatever the reason , Brig Gen 'Buster' Glosson soon ordered that all coalition aircraft should observe a minimum attack level of 12,000 ft.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...y+Jon+Lake+low


Account by EF-111 pilot on 17th January 1991 providing the jamming for strike packages. He highlights the following '10 F-111Fs and 2 Mud-Eagles (F-15Es) were coming in on the deck against two different targets.'

See online pages of 'F-15E Strike Eagle in Combat 1991-2005 by Steve Davies'

F-15E

On the first night of the war there were 21 F-15Es that went into Iraq. The original plan was for 18, but three more were added near the start time...... Once the refuelling was completed , we headed north and descended to low level.... We were all on the Terrain Following Radar at 200ft in radio silence - the pilots were hand-flying the TFR steering while concentrating on the FLIR picture in the HUD .....

More details at following link of the F-15E low level missions.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0Iraq.&f=false

[petit plateau]

TEEJ, etc,

In the USA GAO report OPERATION DESERT STORM Evaluation of the Air Campaign (http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/ns97134.pdf)

it says in footnote 7 on p17

7 We interviewed pilots representing each type of aircraft evaluated, with the exception of British Tornados. The British government denied our requests to interview British pilots who had flown in Desert Storm.

Any idea why ? And what did the USA want to use for airfield strike in opening days other than JP233 given the forces available to the allies at the time ? Presumably nothing or they would have done it differently ?

regards, pp

[Trumpet_trousers]

French Jaguar

One French Jaguar returned with its tail shredded

I remember seeing it after the event at one of the airfields we used to visit on our C130 round-robin. I recall being totally amazed that it managed to get back at all - IIRC it took a missile, which took out the number 2 engine

[Lima Juliet]

Off topic but relevant to SAM damage. i remember this whilst I was doing DENY FLIGHT over Bosnia:

Damaged French Etendard lands on Carrier - YouTube

One lucky Frenchman!

LJ

[NutLoose]

French Jaguar mentioned above damage



image from

Any fighter plane which can survive Missile hit?



more

http://bdd.deltareflex.com/cns_affiche.php?image=7147




from

http://www.pictaero.com/fr/pictures/picture,121760



from

http://www.forcesdz.com/forum/viewto...=1504&p=100942

[jonw66]

Hi Leon
Would that be the Etendard that they fixed at Gioia.
We had the tyre bay in the hangar where they fixed it, the Starfighter hangar.
Was new year 94/95.
The French engineers brought a new back end down. Good guys.
Cheers
Jon

[Lima Juliet]

JW66

Not sure mate. I just remember hearing it and then watching it on the telly.

Anyway, back to GW1 (which I had a fleeting part in in Aug '90!)

LJ

[BEagle]

Trumpet_trousers wrote:

Tut tut, such a second-rate establishment, you should have been downtown in the Sheraton (or was it the Hilton?)

Well, we started in the Hilton at Bahrain, then moved to the Holiday Inn (some tight git scammed breakfast included in the room cost). When the squadron relocated to KKIA, we indeed started off in the Sheraton in Riyadh, but then after the war started and there were no civvy pax needing the airport hotel, we moved there - and were 2 to a room. Much nearer the airport and easier to guard - and less exposure to the driving 'skills' of many of the locals.

There was an attempt to move us all into some wretched 'compound', but after it was learned that the septic tanks hadn't been emptied for 2 years - and a comment to the effect that "The damn place just needs an 'Arbeit macht frei' sign and a few goon boxes to complete the illusion!", that stupid idea was quietly dropped.

[Trumpet_trousers]

and less exposure to the driving 'skills' of many of the locals.

never mind the locals, our GE did his best to write us off outside the hotel when he lost control of the 'pimpmobile'

There was an attempt to move us all into some wretched 'compound', but after it was learned that the septic tanks hadn't been emptied for 2 years - and a comment to the effect that "The damn place just needs an 'Arbeit macht frei' sign and a few goon boxes to complete the illusion!", that stupid idea was quietly dropped.

We may have been in the same compound! IIRC, mother nature being what it is, 50-odd of Aunty Betty's finest all heading for the 'small room' simultaneously in their respective 'bashas' had the effect of turning the ground into a foul smelling swamp! Someone got the Doc involved, who promptly declared it a health hazard, so Sheraton it was! (great prawn curry, btw! )

[just another jocky]

If memory serves, the F1-11 wing based in Turkey flew low level missions for the whole of the Op.